To think you tell someone pre going on a date

[floralarrangement]

that you have a 2 year old and a 4 year old?!

Just got back from a brunch date and this was casually brought up. I feel like this is a HUGE deal, especially due to the ages. I don't have children and don't want to date someone who does. I'm 28 so maybe I'll change my mind on this later in life.

I feel like he didn't tell me (and probably other women) in advance as a way of getting dates from people who otherwise would've said no. Is this too harsh? For those of you who do OLD, do you tell people in advance/put it on your profile?

We work together (huge organisation - didn't know of him before & none of my friends do) which meant I felt pressured have a good date with him because I hate awkwardness. I already have one ex-boyfriend at work which I find stressful, I'd rather not make it a pattern with multiple people I have to avoid for one reason or another

Any decent man would disclose any material fact that would affect somone's decision to date them or not.

That would make dating profiles quite comprehensive e.g.

DISCLAIMER

I have slept with more than 50 women.

I have a £30,000 credit card debt and am only paying the minimum payment each month.

I voted for Brexit.

I am estranged from my brother.

I have nine points on my driving licence, all for speeding on the M5.

I hate cats.

@pixie5121 While I applaud your own personal open-minded dating stance we weren't talking about that? You were arguing from the POV of someone with a blanket ban, for whom kids are a non-negotiable that must be made known because it's non-negotiable and would waste the person with the blanket ban's time? Clearly it was hypothetical as you don't have a blanket ban however you appeared to be making those arguments and replying to me when I countered those arguments from you and others.

I don't think women have to state it on their profile, but they should be upfront about a blanket ban that's not uncommon or at the very least proactive about vetting for it. Wether that's via their profile or the initial messages or during a phone call or at the initial date is entirely up to the woman and how much time she wants to sink into something that might never work. Surely its just common sense when looking for a partner (and not a casual fling) to check that you have the same broad life goals? It's pretty basic compatibility stuff. Do it on the first day or on the tenth date, but the longer you leave it the more time you've spent and if you're late twenties and definitely want kids you don't exactly have all the time in the world.

Married, deaf, wheelchair, terminally ill etc (plus the trans and hiv examples brought up multiple times) while being valid dealbreakers are all fairly uncommon in comparison to other dealbreakers like parents, students, people who aren't settled in an area, people who are only looking for casual, people who work shifts. If you happen to end up on a date with one of the 0.00012% of people with whom you'd need to learn BSL to communicate with and that's a dealbreaker for you then that's pretty unfortunate but also statistically very unlikely. If you happen to end up on a date with one of the 50% of people who are already parents by their early thirties, or the 14% of shiftworkers, or the 14% of people born abroad who might want to return to settle down, and they are dealbreakers, it would save you wasting your time if you happened to enquire casually about kids / work / major life plans.

Or don't, and run the statistically common chance of going on dates with people who failed to mention these things because they assumed you wouldn't care. Or because they wanted to meet you before mentioning it. Or because they're not even looking for anything serious so why the hell would they mention kids / work / 5 year goals when it has no bearing on a casual fling.

All I've ever said is if you want to save yourself the hassle, then save yourself the hassle by being clear about what you want or don't want!!

All of this not being able to say what you want or don't want in a relationship because you want to keep things light or don't want them to judge you or make assumptions or you're scared of being written off as a one night stand sounds an awful lot like what the kids are calling Pick Me behaviour. Could be totally wrong but anyone saying these things just sound like they're still at the stage where they think acting like that will get them the guy. I'm sure it works some of the time, but why waste time on someone you don't actually want because you can't or won't communicate the standards you've set?

I speak from experience as a former Pickmeisha by the way. Hence why I'm a single parent now facing a more limited dating pool with limited time to waste. If you want an actual relationship with the potential for a future DON'T BE LIKE ME

Why would most of those affect someone's decision to date them or not? None of them are in the same league as being responsible for two very young children. The Brexit thing is often mentioned on profiles and/or comes up in conversation.

I, and others, have painstakingly explained why it would be weird, after all this chit chat, to suddenly ask someone if they have children, because anyone with an ounce of emotional intelligence would have already mentioned it, unless they were deliberately trying to hide it.

Completely agree which is why it's better, IN GENERAL, to either communicate any dealbreakers OR vet potential dates for dealbreakers as early as possible, so it doesn't sound weird bringing up a dealbreaker two weeks into something.

Generally! General advice for future and anyone who wants to avoid similar happening

As I've said before I think he was wrong to purposely hide them from your conversations. I suspect he is very new to this and hasn't yet come to the realisation that it's one of those things people who are looking for serious relationships would want to know about early on. Either that or he is genuinely looking for no strings casual in which case kids etc are irrelevant (but I assume that wasn't the case since he has changed his profile now and learned his lesson)

Ringalingaling Surely its just common sense when looking for a partner (and not a casual fling) to check that you have the same broad life goals? It's pretty basic compatibility stuff.

Well, exactly. If you have kids, mention that you have kids at some point in the 2 weeks you have been chatting to someone before you meet up for a date...don't expect someone else to chase around you seeking out information like a sleuth.

I agree with a pp that specifically checking if someone has kids would come across as odd and out of place amongst a broad demographic. The onus has to be on the parent to reveal it. Not necessarily on their dating profile but at least before meeting up.

Wasn't there a post on here a while back about a woman who didn't reveal that she was pregnant before going on a date, and still hadn't revealed it 2 dates in or something?

The onus has to be on the possessor of the material fact to reveal it. Ditto smoking, doing drugs, being married or divorced or separated. But having kids and marital status are two such important facts that they need to be revealed, and any decent person would mention them.

Being secretive and choosing what important things to reveal or not to reveal are horrible traits.

@pixie5121 - absolutely agree. The thing is, whilst Brexit or hating cats could influence who people date, it's really not material to the majority of people which is why it's not something you would expect to see on a profile. If those type of things are material to someone, then one would expect them to raise it with prospective dates when messaging.

Kids on the other hand clearly is a material issue to a relationship so in that instance it is incumbent on the person with kids to raise it prior to the date. It's really not a matter of opinion...

@ringalingling you seem to think it's common for 30-something city professionals to have children, and this is what you're basing your entire argument on. It really isn't. Nowhere near 50% of people in the circles OP and I run in are parents. I'd be surprised if it were even 5%.

There's really no way to casually enquire about whether someone has kids or not. It's a weird, jarring question that comes out of left field if they haven't mentioned it or referred to any kids. I'm chatting to a man on Hinge right now and asked him just to see what he would say. Not that into him so nothing to lose. This is what he said:

"Ehhh....well I'd be a bit of a shit dad if I had kids, given that I've just told you how I spent most of the bank hol on a bender...! Why do you ask...seems a bit random? Do you have some secret kids?!"

In other words, he's quite surprised and offended by the question, just as most normal, decent people would be, and he's also now suspicious of me. Weirdly enough, basically accusing someone of being a liar and a sneak doesn't exactly go down very well and makes them wonder what kind of person YOU are.

If I'm chatting to someone from another country, I do ask what their plans are re staying or going, because it's something you can very easily segue into from general chat. For example, they say they're from Portugal, boom, ask them if they go back a lot, and then if they see themselves going back for good anytime soon. You can never segue into 'so do you have kids?' from general back and forth banter.

You don't understand what a pickme is if you think having emotional intelligence, social skills, and a basic understanding of how humans work makes you one.

Its really not going to limit the "dating pool" of 28 year old professional women with any statistical significance, unless they want to date older men.

Agreed - I didn't think it would either to be honest (and if it did then good, they weren't for you anyway) but it has been given as the reason why women can't outright state their non-negotiables and therefore must rely on potential dates bringing them up before a date occurs so they don't waste their time.

I didn't suggest it, merely using that thought process to highlight the double standard.

A good guide is to disclose anything pre-date that appears on a public register.

Marriage, divorce, children, criminal record...

Indeed.

This thread has shown that common sense really isn't that common.

People equating having two small human beings relying on you to shagging a few people or not liking cats. The mind boggles.

Thats not a "double standard", thats expecting women to run around policing the ability of men to date.

I would think the same of any man of that age who asked me if I had children. I would think them weird, probably not from the same professional background as myself and more used to dating women who have children very early in life. Again, I would expect to disclose that information early on myself, without needing to be asked, therefore I would be surprised if someone asked me.

In fact, if a man had asked me that when I was only 28, I'd possibly assume that he was the type of man who thought women weren't "proper women" unless they had children. There are some men who are very um lets say traditional who think that sort of thing. I certainly wouldn't be very keen to date a man who asked questions like that.

@pixie5121 that’s a brilliant experiment! And he gave exactly the sort of response we’d expected.

I’d add that even if 50% of parents in OPs area were parents by 30, surely only a small percentage of them would be online dating following so soon after kids. Usually relationship breakdowns etc come a bit later on. Statistically, I mean. So it would still be a tiny portion of her dating pool.

Exactly, and that in itself is a massive red flag. Why did the relationship break down so soon after having the second child? I can think of several possible scenarios and not a single one of them is good.

@AchatAVendre to be fair I always would (and do) bring up having kids and I usually add in the fact I'm pretty set on moving out of the city, so I agree with you on a personal level.

However it's mostly done during the "so what are you looking for on here?" stage. Sometimes the other person will ask that Q first but if not I tend to make sure it happens before a date because I don't want to meet someone seeking casual. Meeting them won't change my mind. Tom Hardy wouldn't change my mind 😂. It's at the "real talk" point that it's pretty easy to mention the common dealbreakers because it's an actual discussion and not just slotted in or blurted out or whatever. It gives both people a point to bow out gracefully, or ask stuff if it's negotiable, or be reassured it's not a problem etc.

So while I agree in principle that anyone looking for a serious relationship should bring it up, the fact is not everyone sees the need to do so (and if they're not looking for serious that's probably valid) so avoiding any "real talk" in the spirit of keeping things light and fun before meeting might lead to situations where you're dating people who aren't right for you. Some people might just want to have fun and are happy to save the "real talk" moment for the first date, or the third date, or 3 months in, in which case the onus is on the other person to instigate that if they want to vet before dates and save time and effort.

It's clearly complicated and like everything it's a balance.

If you don't want to date someone with kids I suggest you ask the person if they have kids prior to agreeing any dates.

I wouldnt put my dd on my OLD profile. She has a right to privacy. I also wouldn't just "announce" I have a child. I have quite a lot of other things going for me!

If its your dealbreaker then you should be asking people yourself. Not expecting them to tell you.

I don't think anyone would say this about any other obvious dealbreakers, such as expecting people to ask if their potential date is polyamorous or lives overseas half the time. You'd expect the person who has something in their life which is an obvious dealbreaker, to mention it, and if they didn't mention it you'd assume they didn't.

Having a lot going for you doesn't mean anything when you have kids, that suggests you really underestimate how much of an impact they will have on any potential relationship. You shouldn't want someone that doesn't want to date someone with kids but has been persuaded by your other qualities, believe me I was that person!

A good guide is to disclose anything pre-date that appears on a public register.

Marriage, divorce, children, criminal record...

How many people would declare a divorce or criminal record before the first date? Some might mention the divorce, but many wouldn’t.

He certainly has

I said again that romantically it wouldn't work out between us, but would be happy to get coffee at work.

Tbf he owned his mistake and I don't want any awkwardness. Will merrily ask about dad stuff and about talk about the dates I'm going on to keep it platonic.

I also wouldn't just "announce" I have a child. I have quite a lot of other things going for me!

This is the crux of it - no one is saying having a child is a negative thing and that you must have "quite a lot of other things going for you" to make up for it. It's a very defensive standpoint @Frankola .

The man in question had loads of great things about him - but I just don't want to be in a relationship with a man with small children. For loads of reasons, not because I don't like them or think his sound terrible (they don't, they sound adorable).

I wouldnt put my dd on my OLD profile. She has a right to privacy.

Yup and no one is asking him to, but I'm guessing you wouldn't deliberately omit them if you spent a long time chatting to someone? No idea how old she is, but it's almost impossible to tell someone about your week honestly without mentioning your 2 and 4 year old, if they live with you!

you should be asking people yourself. Not expecting them to tell you.

I just find this standpoint baffling, in terms of being a normal person with emotional intelligence @Frankola

You know that if you're chatting to someone (where you have both highlighted you're looking for a relationship) that not mentioning your children who live with you is dishonet. You know that it's something some people might not want, and so by delaying it (i.e., waiting for them to ask) you're just proloning a situation that might not have legs.

OF COURSE as many people have pointed out, loads of men aren't normal peoeple with emotional intelligence, and so this is why I should ask. And as I've said many a-time, if it happens to me again then I only have myself to blame.

But I don't get all the posters on here saying it's fine.

You know that phrase about your own doorstep? Don't date colleagues unless you're prepared to deal with any fallout. There's plenty of people elsewhere.

Can you put no men with kids on your profile ? I was the same when I was younger . I didn't want someone less baggage and met dh and did things for thr first time together ! Like you say when you are older you can change your mind but you are young!

Is he a bit older than you too? He’s totally stepmum hunting.

so many of my twenty something friends have fallen for this. Apparently these blokes (who they moan about) are ‘worth the baggage’.

All the women have jobs that are
seen as ‘caring’ progressions which suggests they are more of a target than they think they are. It’s simple- bloke ten years older with a house and a car who seems so much more of a catch than their university hangover boyfriends, tells them how they have SUCH a nurturing side and suddenly they have a sexy twenty seven year old playing stepmum.

There wasn’t even a lovely period of courting- just straight to helping out with the school run and ‘dates’ to the zoo after 8 weeks.

I’d definitely put ‘no children, no baggage please’ in your profile. I’d trust the judgement of all their exes before them.

@floralarrangement So you say I am defensive in my post OP. However, in your comments to me you say I am not normal and I don't have emotional intelligence? Would you like to offend me any more than you already have?

You also say you don't find having a child a negative thing. But if you read your original post back you will see it is exceptionally negative

If you have a specific prerequisite for dating someone, whilst I understand it would be nice if they told you they had children beforehand, you must take ownership of your own destiny. It's really down to you to ensure you have the info you want before you commit to dates etc.

Many men do not tell people they have children immediately. As many people have pointed out. No idea why, but if I wanted to know if someone had children I'd just ask.

You seem to be very against the idea of asking potential partners OP. Could this be because you don't like how this might make you look? Why are you so concerned that you shouldn't be the one to ask?