To think you tell someone pre going on a date

[floralarrangement]

that you have a 2 year old and a 4 year old?!

Just got back from a brunch date and this was casually brought up. I feel like this is a HUGE deal, especially due to the ages. I don't have children and don't want to date someone who does. I'm 28 so maybe I'll change my mind on this later in life.

I feel like he didn't tell me (and probably other women) in advance as a way of getting dates from people who otherwise would've said no. Is this too harsh? For those of you who do OLD, do you tell people in advance/put it on your profile?

We work together (huge organisation - didn't know of him before & none of my friends do) which meant I felt pressured have a good date with him because I hate awkwardness. I already have one ex-boyfriend at work which I find stressful, I'd rather not make it a pattern with multiple people I have to avoid for one reason or another

@RobynNora I do take your point, but surely this isn't an age thing? It's a stage thing!

If you are at the stage where you just want to have fun and meet people etc then I totally agree that a light and fun approach is everything. But if you want light and fun then why do the non-negotiables matter so much that having an hour or two date with someone you don't have a future with is a big deal? You're not looking for your future, you're looking for light and fun? Who cares if they have kids or are leaving next year or can't give you the children you'll want some day or could never marry a career woman like you? It's just casual fun!

But if you are actually looking for someone who has future potential then slotting in 20% important stuff alongside the light and fun is a good idea and would save you going on dates with people you have no future with.

That's what I mean about stage. Saying it should be light and fun 'especially in your 20s!' insinuates that's the norm or the way it should be and that's just not the case? Sure there are people in their late twenties who want light / fun / casual but there are loads who are starting to think about settling down and having serious relationships - as evidenced by the fact 50% of first babies are already born by early 30s.

It doesn't have to be a mundane job interview type process, it's little bits you slot in alongside the general conversation. And it makes looking for a potential future when you have dealbreakers a much simpler process.

Do they? Well that’s shit.

I agree that it absolutely should be mentioned. Like I said, children were a dealbreaker for me and I wouldn’t want to waste my time putting my energy into someone only for them to reveal they had a kid/ kids.

The fact is though, for whatever reason, people do hide the fact they have kids, and will assume that because you haven’t said anything, it’s fine. Hence why I think it’s wise to be upfront on the no kid thing, to reduce your chances of wasting your time. Not that it will stop some from thinking they can change your mind, unfortunately.

I think we’re on the same page to some extent @ringalingling.

There are ways of bringing up more serious points while maintaining a light tone. I was using dating apps in my 20s with the end goal of finding a serious sort of fella to settle with but in the first instance I wanted an engaging back and forth chat rather than ‘what are you looking for in a partner’ type heavy stuff. I guess partly to test his intellect and emotional intelligence (sounds so weird putting it like that!) which are important long term traits. I see it as part of the courtship ritual humans have been doing forever rather than empty chat leading nowhere or just sex. Even now I’m committed with kids, I still need things to be fun and playful to an extent. A close friend of mine is far more serious/transactional though and my dating style would drive her mad. She’s quite an intellectual/literal sort of person and dislikes ‘game playing’. I don’t see it as such but it takes all types. She’d have grilled the OPs guy and found out every detail before the date.

This chat is so interesting! I love MN chats where each side is all bewildered by the other. Looks like the poll is split in the middle.

What would you say if they asked you whether you have children in one of their early messages?

I wouldn’t want to lie, but I might end the conversation there. In my experience, some men have a scattergun approach to online dating. They might send thirty women the same, “hi, how are you?” message. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but I can imagine a groomer messaging thirty women to find out who has kids.

@RobynNora yeah I think we are on the same page I'm doing the whole OLD thing now at 30 with the same goal of hopefully finding something more serious. My process is sorta:

See if we can hold an enjoyable conversation about nonsense / light stuff.
Slowly start figuring out if they have potential by peppering in the important-to-me bits before exchanging numbers
Wee phone call to see if there's the same type of surface-level personality (or at least one that won't clash)
Set up a date and see if the chemistry is there.

It probably sounds long winded but it's worked for me in the past and I think actually saves a lot of time in the process. If you want fun and casual you only have to make sure they're attractive and, well, fun which is pretty easy with a photo and a conversation, but if you want serious it's not quite as simple.

OP said she doesn't have a lot of time to date and as a single parent I'm the same - so vetting means you can pick your dates wisely and avoid annoying situations like OPs. Spending two weeks chatting to someone who it was never going to happen with. 😫

Anyhoo, I'm glad you managed to meet your spouse online and totally agree with you on the MN chats, this one has been fascinating and I hope OP finds someone!

Happy dating to you @ringalingling !!

@ringalingling what are you even on about?!

Your profile gets to be all light and fun and witty because you're special but other people have to have disclaimers because you don't want people to know about your disclaimers so you can appear light and fun and witty. I'm dead 😭😂😂

Like, how did you write this and think it made any sense? The mind boggles.

100% this. Exactly. It's pure common sense.

Someone with kids may not want to mention it on the profile, but they can definitely mention it while chatting.

"How was your weekend?"
"Pretty good - went to the woods with my kids" etc.

Then the other person can decide whether or not they're still interested and not waste their time getting ready, travelling to the date and spending an evening with someone they'd never have any intention of dating.

If I'd made it clear I was looking for a relationship and they were the same I'd expect it to come up in conversation before a first date

It would be useful to know that this is their attitude before going on a date with them then wouldn't it?! 🤷‍♀️

@pixie5121 that was the point - it doesn't make sense!

Their 'disclaimer' is that they have kids.
Your 'disclaimer' is that you won't date people with kids.

According to pps both of these things, when disclaimed, can limit your dating pool because people make assumptions based on them and might put you into categories i.e one night stand category, swipe left category, unmatch category.

In other words there might be negative consequences if you disclaim them.

You're saying that the person with one must have the disclaimer so that you don't have to. You couldn't possibly be upfront and say you don't date people with kids because you don't want to be viewed negatively?

Your profile gets to be all light and fun and witty because you're special but other people have to have disclaimers because you don't want people to know about your disclaimers so you can appear light and fun and witty.

It's the premise that doesn't make sense because it's a complete double standard - and I can't really word a nonsensical premise any better than I've tried to.

You're basically saying the default is you and what you want, so everyone else has to tell you in advance about the things you don't want, without you ever actually stating what it is that you don't want.

You could save your own self the hassle (waste of time you called it) of getting ready, travelling to a date and spending an evening with someone you don't want to date if you'd just simply say what you want. But you don't want to incase you're viewed negatively by potential dates, online dating it's all about the light and fun apparently. In your quest to keep things fun and light you've wasted your entire evening lol.

Can't highlight the hypocrisy / illogicality of it any more than that unfortunately.

@ringalingling but I don't have a complete blanket ban on people with kids. I might consider someone an option if they were in a situation such as having had a kid very, very young and the kid being uni age now, for example, if I really liked the guy and everything else seemed perfect. The point is not being blindsided by it on a date. The point is not having my decision taken away from me by someone deliberately misleading me.

I also can't believe you can't see how ridiculous it is to expect women to have to state on their profiles what they DON'T want just because a tiny, tiny percentage men are dishonest and misleading regarding having children.

Are you really saying most women wouldn't mind if they arrived for a date and the man hadn't mentioned he was in a wheelchair? Deaf? Married? Terminally ill? You don't think that things like this should be mentioned upfront, even if it puts most people off? You don't think all of these things would naturally come out during normal conversation unless the guy was purposely hiding them? You think the onus is on the woman to ask if he's able bodied? Single? Not about to die? You honestly think a woman quizzing a man like this wouldn't come across as a lunatic and get blocked? OP and I have both stated that in the circles we move in, asking a man if he has kids is honestly extremely weird and even potentially offensive. You have way more chance of putting off a decent guy by doing that than you do of catching out the one in 500 who is hiding secret offspring.

I can't believe you think you're logical. You completely fail at logic and basic common sense.

@ringalingling

Totally agree.
OP’s stance is a double standard. Expecting daters to mind read yet not fess up her requirements upfront (as it will be socially unacceptable to do so bcos they’re all professional 30somethings & can’t mention kids) & may reflect negatively on her if she does (ruling out people who want kids long term, or attracting dates looking for short term only etc). Wants them to know she’s not ok with kids without saying so. Wants to not be disappointed when they turn up on a date having failed to do so. Expects all in her dating pool to share these rules and abide by them. Naive to be disappointed when they don’t. Yes he should have said it & wrong he didn’t after chatting for 2 weeks. But as people tend to lie in order to get a date it’s a bit silly to refuse to do her part in checking out who she’s actually meeting.

Whilst everyone wants OLD to be as organic as possible & make it feel like just an extension of meeting like minded individuals just in a virtual way, hence the wanting to keep it easy breezy non serious questions & keeping light & fun at the start - the reality is it’s isn’t organic at all. You’re hoping the stranger is like minded. But people lie & play by different rules to you. Hence wanting it to be as natural as possible is unfortunately compromised because everyone has certain requirements & no body wants to waste their time. Nobody is truly who they appear to be until you meet them.

Hence why some people adopt different approaches because the chat for 2 weeks then meet up can result in a lot of wasted effort if you just don’t like what you see in the flesh. And you learn something that is immediately a deal breaker. Not particularly romantic and very much date to order. Hence why OLD is neither romantic or really much fun if you’re truly looking for a long term partner. Of course it can & does work - just think you need your wits about you that’s all & your expectations in check.

Oh my goodness @LicoricePizza - the repeated misinterpretation of what I've said is getting ridiclous. Why do it?

I don't expect anyone to mindread. I don't expect someone to deliberately omit details of their lives to avoid letting me know he has children, after weeks of chat. He has a two and four year old that live with him half the time, clearly it is a big effect to have day to day chit chat with someone and avoid telling them.

I, and others, have painstakingly explained why it would be weird, after all this chit chat, to suddenly ask someone if they have children, because anyone with an ounce of emotional intelligence would have already mentioned it, unless they were deliberately trying to hide it.

I said multiple times - this has never happed to me before. If it happens again then I'll start directly asking people and certainly can't be annoyed it's repeated itself.

But I've already said all of this before...

This is sixth time I've posted this (and second time I've direct replied to you with it)
As I've said a couple of times now if this becomes a trend then of course I'll start asking and obviously couldn't really complain it has happened twice! However, it's the first time it's happened, he's apologised, and I'm putting it down as a blip.

For the umpteenth time, the man himself - who probably is in the best position to decide if he was U or not - has updated his profile and send a message apologising. He's explained why he did it - that he did not think I would meet up with him if I knew.

So alls well that ends well (for this particular bloke) - and I'm sure he'll have no trouble meeting a woman who is comfortable with having a relationship with someone who has a two and four year old living with him.

oh and second update:

He has messaged again as he would like to do a "low key dinner"

have to admire the confidence, will reply in the morning

Ugh no, don't get drawn in. He sounds a bit manipulative.

LOL who does he think he is?

What's a 'low key dinner'? Cheap Nandos while he continues trying to reel you in and manipulate you into 'giving him a chance'?

Ha, so he admits he’s a liar. And then asks for dinner. Wow. What a peach.

I wonder if his band of cheerleaders will be back.

I bet hes hoping OP will have to accept to prove shes not a child hater

He’s been reading mumsnet and has come back with renewed confidence.

He probably wants to take you to the soft play place with burgers!

"A low key dinner" is the sort of dinner that men who lie by omission on OLD have. They use special terms so that no-one can turn around and accuse them of lying/seeing other women/whatever because it was all "low key".

Ringalingaling According to pps both of these things, when disclaimed, can limit your dating pool because people make assumptions based on them and might put you into categories i.e one night stand category, swipe left category, unmatch category.

Its really not going to limit the "dating pool" of 28 year old professional women with any statistical significance, unless they want to date older men. It is this particular man who bucks the statistical trend, since he had his first kid at 26, 7 years younger than the average British man. And that age will be higher for professional men, so he really does buck all trends.

Any decent man would disclose any material fact that would affect somone's decision to date them or not.

Its all to do with boundaries and standards. If you have no problem with men who behave like this, then thats fine for you, go and date them. No-one is stopping you. But most people wouldn't be happy with their time being wasted.

@floralarrangement

As I’ve painstakingly maintained throughout!!* *

Yes he should have said it & wrong he didn’t after chatting for 2 weeks. But as people tend to lie in order to get a date it’s a bit silly to refuse to do her part in checking out who she’s actually meeting.

@AchatAVendre I wonder if he'll disclose at the low key dinner that he's actually married and 'forgot' to mention his wife when talking about what he did at the weekend 😂