To want my friend to move out

[ImNotBossyImtheBoss]

My friend of 20 years, Christine, has lived (lodged?) with me and my husband for the last 5 years. At the beginning we needed the extra money for the mortgage, we are both good friends with Christine and the set up worked well for us all.

The last 5 years have been intense, Christine became very physically unwell and her mental health suffered as a result, we supported her through this. (She has no living family, which is very relevant, we are her support network.) We all went through lockdowns etc. together.

Last year my husband and I had a baby, so now we have a lovely one year old DD. I have found it hard being both her support system and caring for my DD. Additionally she works shifts and trying to keep a baby quiet around someone sleeping in the day is stressful!

In general she is a happy, helpful addition to our household but I'm starting to feel a bit done with having another person about the place. However I would feel horrendous kicking her out. After such a long time this is very much her home too, I know she doesn't want to live alone or with strangers. I don't think our friendship would be the same if I asked her to leave, and I would miss her.

An aside: she has also never babysat our daughter, which she is well placed to do as she sees her everyday! We've asked twice but she said she'd prefer not, which I understand, we decided to have a baby knowing we don't have a support system nearby. But it's also sad when it's been over a year and you just want your friend to give you one night out with your spouse!

I would just like her to not be here half the time! (Reading it, I can see IABU, she isn't a friend to be there only when it's convenient to me.)

She pays a going rate to lodge with us, and this is set up as her permanent address re. electoral roll, bills, etc. I.e. this is not a casual living arrangement.

We did talk about what would happen when the baby came and that if it didn't suit either of us then she would move out.

That's a useful lead-in to the conversation with Christine. "Remember how we agreed that it might not suit one or both of us for you stay here after the baby was born? Well ..."

Since when do lodgers get emotional support, meals cooked for them and lifts when they need them?

Huge emotional support during her baby's first year. What "lodger" gets that?

This is what the OP has said has gone on.

Not a normal lodger arrangement.

So a reciprocal arrangement of the odd offer of babysitting would have been appreciated.

It hasn't happened which is what it is.

She wants her house back, she shouldn't hesitate to move her out.

OP, I strongly recommend you do NOT offer or take responsibility for finding her suitable replacement accommodation.

That would be VERY foolish.

She needs to sort herself out.

She isn't half as fragile as you think.

Anyone who could live with a couple and never once offer to even babysit for a couple of hours is NOT that fragile.

If you offer to find her a new home, you will bitterly regret it.

It is NOT your responsibility.

Offering someone a lift or cooking them a meal is not the same as looking after an 18 month tot for an evening.

I think it definitely is when you do it several times and said friend lives in the same house, so isn't even having to go out to babysit.

I’ve had plenty of friends who’ve done the former for me on many many occasions. I’ve never asked a friend to babysit my small kids , or done it for a friend.

Did you live with them, @Tandora ?

It’s not her home, which is why OP can give her notice to leave. It’s OP and her family’s home and the arrangement no longer works for them.

Maybe she’ll wish she’d been happy with more of a mutually supportive set up when she’s living on her own or with strangers. They won’t be keeping quiet while she sleeps during the day or not invite friends over in case it inconveniences her.

Honestly, the stuff people on here come out with is staggering.

This is the crux of the problem- people (including OP it seems , aren’t understanding this)- If she pays full market rent it’s her home. Tenants have rights. OP is her landlord but as long as friend is paying rent it’s her home.

But she's not a tenant, she's a lodger. Two completely different things as I understand it.

Tandora she is paying lodging rates not full houseshare/rent rates and she doesn't want to live with people she doesn't know. She wasn't doing us a massive favour by living with us, it is a situation that suits her.

Op you (& your DH) sound like you've been amazing friends to Christine, but now your circumstances have changed & she needs to leave. That's totally reasonable on your part. Talk to her & formally give her notice (& then enforce it when the time comes!).

Good luck, you've been more than good to her.

I absolutely agree she has rights as a lodger. They are to a 28 day notice period. Rights as a lodger legally or morally don't entitle her to live here forever surely?

Interested to understand what you think the resolution is Tandora?

It's her home only until the OP tells her otherwise.

When she moves out maybe she will appreciate the meals, lifts, emotional support that was given while she lived with the OP.

Probably not though.
She will feel hard done by.

Expecting a house with a child to remain quiet with a baby because of your shift work is the height of entitlement.

I can't believe the OP has allowed this entitled friend come ahead of her baby, family and her enjoyment of the first year of her babys life.

I think she will bitterly regret not doing it sooner, once she gets her out.

For now she should absolutely start having mum friends over.

This is a lovely time of year to cement relationships with other new mums.

You're the one that knows her, OP - how do you think she'll take it? Is she prone to feeling hard done by?

I think it is time for you and your husband and daughter to live as a family anyway, but her not wanting to babysit is the nail in the coffin. She lives there so being home and around in case the baby wakes up isn't a big deal . And if she hasn't built a bond with a baby she's been around since birth is odd.

And it must be nicer for her to love alone or with other people rather than being a gooseberry all the time. Does she date?

Ok fair enough that’s an important distinction - lodger and tenant with regard to legal rights.
I’m not saying she was doing you a massive favour at all! Obviously the arrangement suited her. But nor are you doing her a massive favour. The relationship was mutually beneficial and transactional, and ultimately you financially benefited more than she did because you owned the property, so that’s important context to think about too.
it sounds like a friendship on both sides, but not akin to close family. It also makes sense that it doesn’t work for you anymore and I think it’s fine to have a frank conversation about that. Good luck!

I think you need a real talk with your friend.

Yes a lodger and a tenant are two completely different things.

A tenant is a person who has a right to exclusive possession of the property she’s in (meaning she can exclude everyone, including the landlord, from the part she has rented), for a specified term, at a rent. Such an agreement confers certain statutory rights on the tenant irrespective of what the tenancy contract says.

A lodger is a person who has a contractual agreement to stay in your home but their residence does not have all of those three characteristics (eg she cannot exclude OP from her bedroom and OP is allowed to go in there if she wants/needs to). As such none of the statutory rights which apply to tenants apply to a lodger, so the only rights she has acquired are those under the lodging agreement (such as whatever you have agreed regarding notice).

Emotionally speaking there isn’t much difference because the tenant/lodger will feel that it’s their home whatever the nature of the agreement, but from OP’s perspective it is very different because she can say to a lodger, the arrangement is no longer working, goodbye.

Yes fair point - I hadn’t considered that distinction

even if you live with them I don’t think it’s equivalent. Housemates often offer lifts/ cook meals, I don’t think they regularly care for each others small kids. If friend had babies herself maybe she would be more willing, but looking after someone else’s 18 month old , when you have no experience is an incredibly daunting task/ big ask. I don’t blame her at all for saying no. Even if my sister were staying with me I don’t think she’d be willing to look after my kids alone. Maybe when they are older perhaps… she’d def cook me a meal though!

@Tandora - the main legal case about the difference between a lodger and a tenant, was about a woman who thought she had taken someone in as a lodger but she was in fact a tenant! So it’s easily done. And in those days the Rent Acts made it a protected tenancy so the homeowner was stuck with her for as long as she wanted….

agree.

i wouldnt care how she feels.
op is already hard done by.

Also, I don't think you will be doing your friend any favours if you let her stay.
You were incredibly kind to support her through physical illness/MH problems.
But her next step needs to be towards living a proper independent, adult lifestyle. Not living somewhere where she has managed to make the household revolve around her needs and preferences.
I think its very unhealthy for all of you to have a third adult living with you.
Good luck, and try to remember this will actually be beneficial for her in the long run.

Oh interesting!!

It's your house, I think after 5years you e gone way above and beyond. I'd say now you have the DD you feel the room is needed and give her time to find a place.

The fact that you discussed during the pandemic that if things weren’t working after the baby was born means you can lead into the conversation with grace now.

Don’t get drawn into extraneous details. Just tell her that as you anticipated it might, the addition of a child has changed things and the current arrangement no longer suits. If she asks why you could say that there are now 4 of you in the house, not 3, and one of them will be growing and taking up more space and making more noise as she gets older and it’s the right time to focus on family life; that an arrangement that worked a few years ago doesn’t work now.

Make sure she knows that you still want to be good and close friends, tell her you understand it may be a shock and unwelcome news, offer to be involved (not help!) in the search for somewhere new if she wants your opinion on places she’s considering, but don’t apologise and don’t take her needing to find somewhere else as your problem to fix.

Before you speak to her, do make sure that you and your husband have worked through what youll do in all the worst case scenarios, as the last thing you want is to talk to her and be blindsided by her on the day of the conversation if she flies off the handle, or a few weeks down the line if she won’t leave.

She surely can’t have expected that you would all live together forever.

Well you've given her a massive amount of support over the years with her illness: lifts, cooking, etc. and she's not prepared to do a single night's babysitting for you. That would piss me off. Yes, it's time she left. Seems the relationship is rather one sided.