To be amazed how much women benefit financially from marriage

[Singleparent78]

I've been single most of my adult life, worked FT and built up a good career but despite this... I'm always struck how much better off women who are married are than me.

It's not just about the merging together of two salaries, but about how much easier financial life is when you have the benefit of a man's higher average income, giving many women a lifestyle they could never afford on their own salaries.

Consider:

• the many women I work with on low salaries or working part-time who are living much nicer lifestyles than I as they have a man significantly supplementing them.

• the married women I know at 45+ who have moved to part-time or stopped working as they have accrued significant savings with their dh but, critically, their dh is now a high earner who can pay for both of them.

• the girls from school who didn't go onto further education, got married soon out of school and haven't worked at all or a bit of p-time - they mostly live in nice houses and cars, have enjoyed nice holidays etc. There hasn't been much 'penalty' for not being independent or not having a career.

All in all these women, by way of marriage, seem to have an easier go than solo me slogging it out for 30 years working FT and trying my best to be independent.... like the teachers at school told us girls to be!

I understand: all the constraints on women to generate their own income esp the gender pay gap and the impact of childrearing; that the above scenarios don't apply to all couples; that I'm assuming a heterosexual set up; that women contribute within marriages in other way than bringing in income; and that assets in a marriage are shared as is any income that comes into a marriage. I know people might think I'm being anti-women for challenging women's choices or women's rights or just plain bitter...

Still, AIBU to wonder:.......Is it not depressing that the best or most common way for women to be financially comfortable or create wealth is still through marriage and the merging of assets with a man?

I’d agree it was rude if I went up to a random stranger and demanded they justify their choices to me, I don’t think it’s rude to make the observation online, on a thread about this topic, to no one in particular. To me, there’s a difference between those two scenarios.

@wellhelloitsme i don’t think that the majority is always correct, so no, I don’t believe several posters on a thread saying something has offended them is a me issue necessarily. It could be. But there could also be numerous other reasons - online communication skewing things, someone making an assumption and other posters following suit, not reading the initial comments and taking things out of context. I personally have an issue with the way some people communicate by not saying what they mean. I don’t see why people need to do that. It doesn’t bother me if someone says “I don’t understand why someone would choose to be a SAHM, that seems pointless to me”. I can either tell them why or ignore it, but I don’t find it offensive unless they’re trying to stop me from doing it.

No shit stains in the toilet though: priceless

@ForestFae

I don’t believe several posters on a thread saying something has offended them is a me issue necessarily

Colour me shocked...

The wide eyed naïveté is a bit cringe at this point tbh.

You've told women on here that you think them having kids as 'pointless' due to them making different choices to you.

You compared working mums with kids (kids in safe childcare) to people who get dogs that are kept in the house alone and unsupervised while they're at work.

I don't for one minute believe you genuinely don't know how offensive (and frankly nasty) some of your comments have even. I think you just don't give a shit 🤷🏻‍♀️

Maybe forage around for a bit of empathy at some point. It's a good life skill to teach your children, for a start.

I don’t see why people need to do that. It doesn’t bother me if someone says “I don’t understand why someone would choose to be a SAHM, that seems pointless to me”.

Thank you for answering. I am sorry if I have misunderstood your intentions on this thread. This helps me to understand that you may genuinely be unable to see how offensive and insensitive your comments are, and that you probably didn't mean to be rude. Hopefully others will see that too.

Didn't mean to add your last quote in bold there.

Yes that is exactly what is irritating about the OPs post

Thank you. I was being genuine when I said I don’t see what’s offensive - I usually go by treating others how I’d like to be treated, and I don’t take offence to people saying they find my choices strange or unusual (in fact I’m quite used to people saying that about a variety of things I do). I understand others have taken offence, but I can’t understand why a stranger sharing their views upsets them so much when I’m not trying to impact their life in any way. I appreciate the consideration.

I understand others have taken offence, but I can’t understand why a stranger sharing their views upsets them so much when I’m not trying to impact their life in any way.

But people have explained why it's offensive, you just don't seem willing to be open to their answers or to take them on board and adopt your communication style accordingly?

People have told you directly that your tone and words have been upsetting / offensive / hurtful etc - even if you find it hard to understand why, once they've explained don't you feel bad for having upset or offended someone when it comes to them being a fit parent?

As that's what you've done by comparing them to people who get dogs and then work all day leaving them alone. People aren't leaving their kids in a house alone, they're in childcare being played with and socialising with other kids or often with grandparents who adore them.

I don't understand how you can't see the dog comparison was at best thoughtless (which I would then apologise for if I was you) or at worse mean spirited and designed to make mums feel shit about their choices rather than being a case of you expressing that you don't share their preferences or decisions.

@ForestFae

It doesn’t bother me if someone says “I don’t understand why someone would choose to be a SAHM, that seems pointless to me”. I can either tell them why or ignore it, but I don’t find it offensive unless they’re trying to stop me from doing it.

This is either deliberately or wilfully naive.

It's not only that you are saying you don't understand why someone would choose to work rather than staying at home with their children if they have the means to do to. This is a relatively neutral comment, but you're not just saying this. You are saying its actively damaging for them to work if they have the means to stay at home.

You have said clearly in a number of instances that anyone who eschews the opportunity to spend most of their time with their children is effectively making a deleterious choice for their children. You can try to back away from this all you like with whataboutery about choices and blaming capitalist society etc but this is what these remarks add up to.

I find it very hard to believe that you can't see why this is offensive. Particularly because a very large number of us have no choice in the matter.

With apologies, I haven't read the whole thread, and can only comment on personal experience. As a formerly highly paid freelance writer with one child , born when I was 43, I knew my work would dry up once I hit 45-ish, because it was a younger person's game even in 2000, but because I was the main breadwinner while DH built his business slowly, and because I kick started our pension scheme with money, knowledge and ideas, and paid off the mortgage, I don''t actually feel any guilt at all. My professional life would never have worked around caring for a child and I had to have a nanny to manage three days a week when I travelled constantly.

If I thought I’d done something wrong, I’d apologise - but my apologies are genuine. I’m not going to apologise for someone being offended if I don’t think what I said was wrong, to me that’s inauthentic. I’d rather be honest, to myself and others, even if that makes me seem rude to some people. I am sorry they were hurt, as that wasn’t my intention, but I’m not sorry for having my view. The dog thing, I even said “hiring a dog sitter” so no it’s nothing to do with suggesting they’re leaving them alone.

I get that you really can't see why people are finding your posts offensive, but in a sense, it doesn't actually matter if you understand why. What matters at this point is to recognise that many people have been offended by your post. It doesn't help to explain why you think they shouldn't be offended or why you wouldn't" be offended because they are^ offended. And honestly, by repeating the views that people found offensive in the first place in order to further explain your point, you are just making things worse. Your intentions do not negate the validity of other people's responses.

The best thing to do at this point would be to acknowledge that you just don't get it, apologise for upsetting people and then avoid repeating the same opinions because you have now understood that they are upsetting to other people even if you don't understand why.

@ForestFae

I give up. I hope you can teach your children that even if they don't get why their words have hurt someone, if their words do genuinely hurt someone then it's gracious to apologise.

An example - I'm adopted and occasionally children would make thoughtless comments about it that upset me. The nice kids, even if they thought what they were saying was factual, apologised for upsetting me unintentionally when they saw I was upset and adapted their language accordingly so they didn't hurt me again.

It's a shame you seemingly will be saying to your children "well darling unless you were being nasty on purpose, you never need to apologise. If you think you were right it doesn't matter what effect your words had."

Good luck with everything.

Well said @Mumwantingtogetitright - exactly that!

X post.

You don't need to apologise for your views. You are of course entitled to your opinions, like all of us are.

What I personally think you do need to apologise for (and I am actually saying this with the intention of being helpful) is the crass and insensitive way in which you expressed your opinions, because even though you didn't intend your comments to be offensive, it is actually very difficult to read them any other way.

I appreciate that you probably don't agree that your comments were crass and insensitive, but I'm guessing this is because communication skills are not a strength for you. That's fine, I'm sure you have other skills, but honestly, take it from me... the comments really were inappropriate if your primary intention wasn't to insult working mothers.

It’s the insinuation that it’s only due to the cost of childcare in relation to their pay that these working class women are making the decision to be SAHM and that they would actually be happier serving someone behind a checkout than caring for their own children. Yes perhaps they would opt to work if they had funded childcare but if they were funded in equal amount to be a SAHM many would actually choose that rather than most minimum wage jobs. You only need to look at the fact that when women are funded to have time off for maternity leave, most do opt to take it even with the significant drop in income

That's not what I was insinuating at all. If you've taken that from my post, then i apologise, it was definitely not something I've tried to say (and nor do I think it). My post was about the fact that the element of choice is often removed from working class women. Whatever choice women make is fine with me! I just want women to have the choice. But My post was in response to OPs post about how for working class women, getting married and giving up work (or having a 'token'/'hobby' PT job as someone said, around school hours) was a choice and they chose it because it was easier than working hard.

I accept I’m not a people person, I’m very introverted by nature, and I think it’s fair to say I don’t communicate in the way others do. I’m not sure that makes it wrong though. I’ve always thought this - since finding out I have ADHD and DS1 is autistic, I’ve always wondered why it’s the ND folk who tend to have to apologise for the way we speak, why is it always us who has to tread on eggshells around others? No one ever seems to think that maybe neither group are wrong and it’s just different styles of communication. I personally prefer people to be more straight speaking. I accept others may find this rude, I don’t find it rude. This is a bit off topic so sorry for the rant, basically what I’m saying is I don’t think ND people are wrong for being blunt or “insensitive” and it does feel like it’s always us who are blamed for misunderstandings - DS1 used to get it a lot because he has no filter and has some tics. I’ve always said that while he needs to understand not everyone is like him, people should also understand not everyone is like them and it’s a two way thing. I don’t think that’s unreasonable

ForestFae I said if you are going to make uninformed comments about raising children with 2 working parents and then say you're sick of it when people do the same about home education with no experience of it, that is unfair. You then called me pathetic. Was that because at the time you thought I was a lone dissenter?

I don't even work full time at the moment, though am considering doing so next year. Frankly if you think the only reason I found your opinions offensive was being personally "stung" then you are dead wrong and extremely reductive.

Idon’t take offence to people saying they find my choices strange or unusual

But you didn't say that the choice to put children into childcare so the mother could work was strange or unusual, did you? You said it was unnatural, selfish, pointless, detrimental to the child. You said that working mothers are not primary care-givers and that you couldn't understand why we bothered having children at all. And as others have pointed out, despite people explaining to you that it's rude and offensive, you've carried on.

Gah, my tag didn't work.
Anyway, I'm hiding the thread. Some of the sentiments within are vile.

@ForestFae , I am neurodiverse myself. I understand where you are coming from but I think you are completely wrong on this.

Yes, it's fine for you have your own communication style, and actually, I think there can be some real advantages in open, honest and sometimes blunt communication. However, you cannot simply dismiss other people's feelings and pretend that it doesn't matter if they are hurt by your words just because you don't think you were rude. That would just make you a cold and callous person who doesn't care about anyone except yourself.

I get that you obviously struggle to empathise with others, and that's fair enough, but I don't think you actually want to hurt people. And if that's right, that means that you do need to accept that there are certain social norms that you need to accept even if you don't like them and don't understand them. That's just how it is, and you will upset other people if you choose not to accept it.

I am beginning to understand a little more about why you have essentially chosen to opt out of mainstream society, as you clearly don't find social interaction easy. I'm glad that you have found a way of life that suits you, and I wish you well.

@ForestFae

I’ve always wondered why it’s the ND folk who tend to have to apologise for the way we speak, why is it always us who has to tread on eggshells around others?

I'm sorry this doesn't wash and I think its pretty offensive to neurodiverse folk that you suddenly try to play this card at this stage in the game.

You've spend pages and pages of this thread saying women who work are variously unnatural, selfish, harming their children etc etc. Having been told by multiple posters that the way you express your perspective is causing offence you first blame the "capitalist system" and then meander through a long range of very thin self-justifications before finally arriving at "woe is me, I'm an introvert and neurodiverse and no-one understands me". Its so nakedly self-serving.

Please, instead of trying to justify yourself, think a bit about why you might have hurt so many people.

In fairness to @ForestFae , she only mentioned the neurodiversity when I asked a direct question about it. Something in one of her posts made me wonder.

I suspect that the OP doesn't fully realise the extent to which her ND affects her communication, so she may not have even realised that it was a factor here.

Erm, someone asked me if I was neurodivergent and our conversation is off the back of that. I have never brought it up unprovoked. I answered a direct question about it, and myself and another neurodivergent person are discussing communicating as ND people. So no, I’m not being self serving and woe is me at all, you’re just determined to find fault with anything I say because you’ve decided you don’t like me.

@Mumwantingtogetitright

Maybe. And I'm not neurodiverse so possibly I'm not seeing something here.

But I just don't buy that anyone can fail to grasp after pages of being told that they have hurt a very diverse group of people with their remarks that they might be the problem.