To be amazed how much women benefit financially from marriage

[Singleparent78]

I've been single most of my adult life, worked FT and built up a good career but despite this... I'm always struck how much better off women who are married are than me.

It's not just about the merging together of two salaries, but about how much easier financial life is when you have the benefit of a man's higher average income, giving many women a lifestyle they could never afford on their own salaries.

Consider:

• the many women I work with on low salaries or working part-time who are living much nicer lifestyles than I as they have a man significantly supplementing them.

• the married women I know at 45+ who have moved to part-time or stopped working as they have accrued significant savings with their dh but, critically, their dh is now a high earner who can pay for both of them.

• the girls from school who didn't go onto further education, got married soon out of school and haven't worked at all or a bit of p-time - they mostly live in nice houses and cars, have enjoyed nice holidays etc. There hasn't been much 'penalty' for not being independent or not having a career.

All in all these women, by way of marriage, seem to have an easier go than solo me slogging it out for 30 years working FT and trying my best to be independent.... like the teachers at school told us girls to be!

I understand: all the constraints on women to generate their own income esp the gender pay gap and the impact of childrearing; that the above scenarios don't apply to all couples; that I'm assuming a heterosexual set up; that women contribute within marriages in other way than bringing in income; and that assets in a marriage are shared as is any income that comes into a marriage. I know people might think I'm being anti-women for challenging women's choices or women's rights or just plain bitter...

Still, AIBU to wonder:.......Is it not depressing that the best or most common way for women to be financially comfortable or create wealth is still through marriage and the merging of assets with a man?

Ok. But you can see that nowadays, most people need two incomes in order to survive, which often takes the choice away from lots of people, and you can see how it’s normalised not to have an extended family network or even live near your family. It’s quite an unnatural way of living. Also, this isn’t strictly related fo being a SAHP, but I find it a bit sad so many people find identity and define themselves by their careers. Like when people say they’re bored when not at work - life is about more than work, all of us should have things that fulfil us, passions that set our souls on fire, interest that light our eyes up, that are nothing to do with making money for the rich to get richer.

@FrancescaContini what? you know nothing about my life and I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder nor would I define myself as wc, if it matters.

Why can I not pose a question on MN about people's lives without everyone chiming in that the root of my concern MUST be bitterness and jealousy.

I don’t even know where to start with this this o e 🤣🤣🤣

Two people sharing a house is going to be less expensive than one person having to pay for everything alone. To have backup and support when you're working full-on and FT makes life a lot easier for the higher earner/FT worker and also means that weekends aren't full of going to the dry cleaner, cleaning, doing admin etc etc because someone else has already done that. The problem is that a lot of the work (mostly) women do at home - cooking, supporting children and partner, and elderly parents - is that it's invisible, unvalued, uncounted, unpaid and generally considered to be unproductive.

But you yourself said that your home town was a “shitty working class” place. These are your words. Nobody is defining you as anything - you’re the one who’s mentioned class 🤦‍♀️

Perhaps because you sound so judgemental about people who have a different life to yours. You've chosen your path in life, great, but you don't seem to respect the choices of those who live differently to yours.
I live my life this way because it works for me and it's thankfully a far cry from my parents life - my parents divorced, my mum brought all the money to the relationship and I was left to bring myself up.

But you yourself said that your home town was a “shitty working class” place. These are your words. Nobody is defining you as anything - you’re the one who’s mentioned class 🤦‍♀️

I was trying to communicate about the limited choices some women have in places where there aren't amazing 100k+ jobs and a less international mindset. It was a shitty town, just like the many crappy towns which people try to escape from. But for those women who stay, if they want to have a comfortable life they know that is more likely to come via marriage than through their own income at local jobs or career/progression.

And my point was - isn't it a bit depressing that this is still the case when we have been trying to encourage women to be independent? But it appears virtually everyone on this board thinks marrying is a natural state and enjoying a better quality of life thanks to the enhanced income from a partner is an entitlement.

I'm a high earning single mum.

My OH and I will move in together in a couple of years which will significantly reduce costs. We will both have more disposable income.

That said, statistics say women who are single or without kids (or both) are happier.

I've definitely been happy on my own and very happy we have our own places. So it's a trade off surely.

Yes, all of us should have things that motivate and inspire us... and for some of us, that is our work. I love what I do. Contrary to what you might think, it isn't just meaningless grunt work that makes rich people richer - that's a very narrow view of what work might entail. My work is makes a real impact on my local community and a substantial difference to the lives of some very vulnerable people. It gives me the opportunity to use my skills and talents to touch the lives of far more people than I would if I was focused only on my own family and friends, and it continually stretches and challenges me in a way that really pushes me to keep learning and developing. I get a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction from it and a real sense of achievement. It isn't my whole identity, of course, but it's certainly a very important part of my identity. I'm not sure why you would find that sad?

As for the "natural" way of living that you describe, I think you have an idealised image of what that's like. My DH is from a very traditional community overseas, and he is very unusual in having left. Most people stay in the communities where they grew up, the women don't work outside the home and the men are mostly engaged in farming. Everything pretty much revolves around the extended family and the community. There are some wonderful aspects to this, such as the way in which older people are cared for and the way in which the community rallies round when someone is in trouble. Then there are the not so good aspects of this, including lots of alcohol problems, women trapped in violent or abusive marriages, family feuds etc. DH is actively encouraging his nieces and nephews to get educated, pursue careers and move away from that kind of life because he sees it as so limiting and insular. Not quite as idyllic as you imagine. And fwiw, the kids in that society don't spend every waking hour with their mothers either - typically they get passed around from one relative or neighbour to the next, while their mothers get on with whatever needs doing. There is nothing particularly "natural" about kids in a nuclear family at home all day with one parent.

Yes, if you have a job that is something meaningful to the community I can see how that would be meaningful. But most jobs aren’t like that - the average persons job, particularly office based jobs, are actually pretty pointless and just there for the sake of it - look how many middle managers have found their jobs obsolete after the pandemic, for example. A lot of jobs are just made up.

Yes, I’m aware of the problems that can exist in some more traditional communities, but that’s not exactly what I mean. I’m not on about having to live up to expectations of pleasing your elders and having no individuality, and I’m aware kids don’t spend time exclusively with one parent - that’s not what I’m suggesting either, though. I’m a SAHM and my kids spend time with my parents almost every day as well as me, they see friends, other family members and they just come along with whatever we are doing and join in. My pre school ages kids can cook, garden, plant crops, vacuum, pay for groceries, make their beds, feed animals, identify edible plants, talk to people of all ages, along with a whole host of other things, because I’ve just always bought them along with whatever I’m doing instead of compartmentalising my life. Kids are a part of society and should be ideally interacting with the world with their families.

find it a bit sad so many people find identity and define themselves by their careers. Like when people say they’re bored when not at work - life is about more than work, all of us should have things that fulfil us, passions that set our souls on fire, interest that light our eyes up, that are nothing to do with making money for the rich to get richer.

What if your career is the thing that fulfils you? I think it's a real privilege to have found a career I'm passionate about, I get paid to do something I love and that makes a difference to peoples lives. Why is that sad?

That doesn't mean I'm not fulfilled by my family and my friends but my career is a huge part of my identity and I'm not ashamed of that.

I’ve still no idea whatsoever what point you’re trying to make OP. Are you saying that women shouldn’t marry? Or that finances should be kept separate? Or that societal values, as you see them, are incorrect? Are you saying feminists are/were wrong? Are you making a political point, or just slating other women who’ve chosen a different life to yours?

If you can’t encapsulate your argument in a few simple words or sentences then I shall continue to think you’re trying to troll the board. There’s a strong whiff of narcissism around when someone can only shout others down and tell them that they’re wrong, but cannot explain what ‘right’ looks like.

But even lots of the so-called "made-up" jobs might be rewarding and fulfilling to people in different ways. They might get to exercise their creativity or use their communication skills. They might have opportunities to learn and develop themselves or others. They might get a sense of achievement from what they do. They might take pride in providing a high quality service, in developing a high quality product or in supporting their team effectively and being a great boss or colleague. Or they might simply feel pride in earning enough money to pay for a good lifestyle for their children. Who are you to dismiss those experiences as pointless and to decide that they aren't meaningful?

Work won't be rewarding and meaningful for everyone, of course, but people - men and women - will interpret and frame it in different ways. What's pointless to you might be meaningful to them and vice versa.

My point about the traditional society was that you seem to be harking back to some sort of idyllic reality that almost certainly never existed. Yes, there are pressures and stresses in modern life that are probably less than ideal for manypeople, but equally, there were pressures and stresses in the past when women had far fewer options open to them. Personally, I'm much happier in a society that doesn't limit my options as much as a more traditional society would have done.

What does a traditional society look like? Is it similar to modern day Afghanistan? Or something completely different?

But even lots of the so-called "made-up" jobs might be rewarding and fulfilling to people in different ways. They might get to exercise their creativity or use their communication skills. They might have opportunities to learn and develop themselves or others. They might get a sense of achievement from what they do. They might take pride in providing a high quality service, in developing a high quality product or in supporting their team effectively and being a great boss or colleague. Or they might simply feel pride in earning enough money to pay for a good lifestyle for their children. Who are you to dismiss those experiences as pointless and to decide that they aren't meaningful?

Exactly, women you can work but only if it's meaningful

Because imagine what could be done if society was structured differently - people could take pride in their art, their craftsmanship, families, in sustainable living, in gardening…basically we could live at a slower pace in harmony with nature, as opposed to being “proud” of being part of a consumerist ratrace. Again, my issue is with society rather than the individuals who have to do what they must.

I’m not necessarily saying things were ideal in the past - I’m saying that somewhere, we have lost our way and what should’ve been progress actually isnt imo. I’m saying that we should have gone in a different direction. Personally, I think I would have preferred some of the set ups of the past, but that’s going to vary wildly by individual and circumstance.

No one should be doing work if it’s not meaningful, in my opinion. Society is all wrong in this regard. We should be living in sustainable communities, doing work that matters like growing our own food, crafting lasting tools, and working together as a community. Don’t frame it as if I’m specifically criticising women only, when my criticisms are of modern society.

But even lots of the so-called "made-up" jobs might be rewarding and fulfilling to people in different ways. They might get to exercise their creativity or use their communication skills. They might have opportunities to learn and develop themselves or others. They might get a sense of achievement from what they do. They might take pride in providing a high quality service, in developing a high quality product or in supporting their team effectively and being a great boss or colleague. Or they might simply feel pride in earning enough money to pay for a good lifestyle for their children. Who are you to dismiss those experiences as pointless and to decide that they aren't meaningful?

Who defines meaningful though? You might not think my job is meaningful but it's meaningful to me and enhances my life.

Fair enough, you might have preferred the set-ups of the past. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have done. I prefer being a person in my own right, with the freedom to live as I choose, rather than being someone else's possession.

And yes, I would indeed like to change the way in which society works, but I don't want to go back to the past or reverse the progress that we have made. I would like to see a much greater emphasis on community - not just family. I would like to see perfect equality between men and women, with mothers and fathers both truly sharing the responsibility to provide and care for their children between them. I would like to see a fairer distribution of wealth, with real support for the most vulnerable. And I would like to see everyone having opportunities to use their talents for the greater good, without being held back by caring responsibilities or structural inequalities. I want us to be mindful of the world that we live in and of the people around us, and we absolutely need to find a better way of protecting the environment, but I don't want to go back to some sort of pre-industrial agrarian community because I have seen for myself that a life like that isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I want to live in the modern world, I just want to make it a better one.

No one should be doing work if it’s not meaningful, in my opinion. Society is all wrong in this regard. We should be living in sustainable communities, doing work that matters like growing our own food, crafting lasting tools, and working together as a community. Don’t frame it as if I’m specifically criticising women only, when my criticisms are of modern society.

This was the bit I meant to copy...

The thing is @ForestFae , you seem to want everyone to live in a way that you personally consider to be natural or meaningful or whatever, but not everyone aspires to the kind of lifestyle that you describe. If you want to go off and live in some sort of self-sufficient commune, there is nothing to stop you from doing that. There are people who live in those sorts of communities. Not everyone wants that though.

Then 2nd wave feminists were very dim economists and you were very silly to have not seen the obvious fact that the time available and combined earnings of 2 people raising children would be greater than 1 person.

@brookstar yes you can find personal meaning anywhere, but let’s not pretend someone finding meaning in being able to spend lots of.money on fast fashion tat produced in sweatshops is the same as working a job helping vulnerable refugees learn English, for example.

@Mumwantingtogetitright I understand not everyone wants the same lifestyle, especially since society pushes that it’s all about money, material wealth, celebrity, trends and consumerism - but that doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to find it a little sad that society has, in my view, lost sight of what really matters and now chases money and empty materialism above all else.

Couples are always better off than singles.

Of course, you're allowed to feel sad at anything you like. Your emotions are entirely your own.

Personally, I'm a little sad that some people would reduce work, which so often brings huge benefits to people's lives, to nothing more than chasing money and empty materialism. Such beliefs strike me as incredibly limiting, and rather dismissive of something that is so important to many people.

I'm a little sad that some women feel that they have to choose between the wellbeing of their children and the opportunity to have a meaningful and rewarding career outside of the home as well as their own financial independence. Again, such beliefs strike me as very limiting. I am particularly sad that my own brilliantly talented mother got caught in this trap and that she now looks back with regret at the sense that she wasted the gifts and the time that was given to her.

I'm a little sad that some women are so eager to justify their own choices in life that they feel the need to rubbish the perfectly good and rational choices made by other women who have chosen to prioritise different things in their lives.

I guess we all have things that we could change if we could, but we don't all agree on what "ideal" would look like.