Page 9 | To Say Well Done Suella Braverman.

AnonIsUsuallyAWoman · 2022-05-27T23:32:51+00:00

Of course I'm not and I'm going to applaud her. Well Done and Thank You! Brava!

Smileyaxolotl1 · 29/05/2022 11:15

Badqueen
I’m not sure that anyone has said they won’t use the child’s desired name actually.
name genders change all the time so are fairly irrelevant.
I tend to use the child’s preferred name and avoid using pronouns.

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 11:18

Wait a sec, the 1950s called, they want your attitude back.

Sarahcoggles · 29/05/2022 11:18

CurlyCew · 28/05/2022 20:33

Does anyone ever think that young people are brainwashed into this gender issue. I often feel that some of them might think it is "cool" to declare that they want to or are actually transitioning. It is a very new thing really that affects a minuscule number of children. Unless they feel that to be noticed they must do something kind of radical, and they know because of TRA they cannot be questioned.

I also feel that gender confusion or whatever you would like to call it is the result of psychological issues. Those issues should be addressed before welcoming a child who declares they are the opposite sex with open arms and no questioning.

I note that a pp mentioned that girls who are on the AS often express a wish to transition. Isn't it odd then that the most vocal of trans are male to female, and all the angst for all women that brings. In other words, girls transitioning is of no issue, but boys to girls, whoa..... you are going to take our spaces and so on.

I'd love to have the nerve to say it is a fad, a fashion statement, a rebellious thing, looking for a reaction, and in some I would say that is the case. But I reckon most of them are muddled up teenagers looking for a place in society, and many of them are far too immature and young to know what they want yet.

Exactly!
How come 20 years ago the vast majority of young people were happy with their gender, and now huge numbers of them seemingly want to transition? For sure there has always been a tiny number of people who genuinely believe they were born into the wrong body, but I'm convinced that most of the non binary (or trans or whatever) teens these days will grow out of it. In the same way that I outgrew wanting to have pink hair and date drug addicts.
And as for the pronouns - I agree that teachers shouldn't have to look at a muscley 6 foot lad with a moustache and refer to him as she/her, just because today he's worn some mascara and said his name is Cathy.
When my brother was at primary school he wanted the teachers to call him Peter Rabbit. Quite rightly they didn't, because he wasn't called Peter and he wasn't a rabbit!

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 11:20

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:15

@Badqueen What is more important is not pandering (sorry, I genuinely paused for a minute and couldn't think of another word) to a CHILD's silly whims. Children need to be disciplined and raised, they shouldn't be the ones dictating the terms. I will call that child their name on their enrollment. If that 'distresses' them, then there is something much, much bigger going on. Adults call the shots. Not children.

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My last message was in response to this.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:21

pointythings · 28/05/2022 21:47

Smileyaxolotl1 and that is why we need third spaces. But just as TRAs are erasing women, so are their opponents erasing trans people.

If you want to engage with a young person who is questioning their identity, just coming straight out and telling them their chosen name and pronouns are bullshit is just as unhelpful as telling them that you'll be taking them for hormones and surgery straight away. Again, zero sum thinking.

@pointythings so are their opponents erasing trans people

Ok, stop right there! This is just absolutely ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous and is gaslighting and DARVO to the umpteenth degree. And I will not stand to see this disgraceful slur. It is the trans people (or rather TRAs) that are rejecting third spaces, not their opponents. We DESPERATELY want them to have third spaces. Many of us even said we'd fight alongside them and even help in fundraising, etc. Whatever they wanted. We women would stand side by side and help them get their third spaces. But, they don't want that. They don't want the effort. It is far easier for them to colonise women's spaces. It is the transpeople who refuse third spaces, so THEY are erasing themselves. Don't you even dare to DARVO with this and blame this on us and other opponents. Don't you even dare!! That is one of the worst cases of DARVO, gaslighting and victimising I have said on this site. I'm truly livid! The only ones erasing trans people are trans people themselves who are determined to cut off their nose to spite their face. NOT US.

pointythings · 29/05/2022 11:26

You don't have a trans young person in your household, do you? If you did, you wouldn't be using this kind of extremist language. I am opposed to TRAs. I am also opposed to people who feel that young people exploring their identity should be ignored in schools. We've just made a few tiny steps forward - as I mentioned upthread, my youngest experienced that in school and it really helped them feel safe and enabled them to focus on academics. Suella Braverman says it's OK for schools to wipe all that out.

You can use all the extreme language you want and accuse me of all kinds of bullshit, but all that proves is that you're at the other extreme of the equation. And yes, that makes you just as bad.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:27

Lindy2 · 28/05/2022 22:33

I'm a parent of an autistic girl who now says she's a boy.

I really wish her teachers hadn't fallen over themselves to show how accepting they were of her new identity. It actually seemed like they were delighted to be able to prove how great they were at equality.

What she actually needed and still needs is affirmation that it's perfectly ok not to be a stereotypical girl (most of us actually aren't) and that what she thinks is gender is actually personality. She doesn't need to reinvent herself because she doesn't fit the girly girl image.

All we can do as parents and her family is to keep reinforcing how great she is just as herself while it seems other people, particularly some teachers, seem to have lost touch with common sense. It would have been ok to say no to her pronouns and new name and to tell her these are decisions for when you are older and have more life experiences.

She's 13 with a maturity age of around 10. We would also have said no to tattoos and body piercings had she decided that was going to be her thing. We have also said no to dying her hair blue unless in the school holidays.

Teens experiment with who they are. They always have done through things like being a goth, a punk, a mod etc. Never before though have so many, seemingly previously sensible adults, also jumped on the same bandwagon, to be part of the teen phase. That's where things have gone very wrong.

Yes sadly a very large proportion trans people and questioning children are autistic. A very large proportion. There was a survey done by a spectrum organisation, and it showed that a large number of ASD children and adults are trans or questioning.

Basically it seems the TRAs have used a disability to prey on and emotionally manipulate people and children with ASD. If you have a child with autism or are on the spectrum, they are extremely vulnerable to the trans lobby.

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 11:38

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:27

Yes sadly a very large proportion trans people and questioning children are autistic. A very large proportion. There was a survey done by a spectrum organisation, and it showed that a large number of ASD children and adults are trans or questioning.

Basically it seems the TRAs have used a disability to prey on and emotionally manipulate people and children with ASD. If you have a child with autism or are on the spectrum, they are extremely vulnerable to the trans lobby.

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But its ok because children are at school to be disciplined, not pandered to. Why make any adjustments at all for autistic children in school? They should know their place, they should stop having silly whims. You've already said you'd call them by their birth name even if it distressed them. You've just said the majority of people who identify as trans are autistic. So by that logic you'd be happy to treat an autistic child in a way that may be harmful, because they're trans. There's a few words for that kind of attitude.

Honestly, id stop posting if i were you. You're not doing the so called "feminists" of Mumsnet any good.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:40

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 11:10

I can't be bothered to explain yet again but you're the one who has missed the point. These vulnerable children aren't the ones in charge of making decisions about who goes into which prison. You can argue against that, without being bloody minded about children wanting to change their name at school, and the school respecting that.

Regardless of whether people on Mumsnet think people should be allowed to identify as a different gender, they do. So do you a) lecture the child about gender identity/question their reasons/be a dick to that child or do you b) shrug, realise that it's none of your business what gender that child considers themselves and call them the name they wish to be called by?

I'm just really curious how many people faced with a GNC child would actually deliberately call that child a name other than that which that wish to be called because your feelings trump that of the child. Hardly anyone has answered that.

Oh and let's not forget option c) - stand behind the lovely suella, cheering her on, she who voted against rights for gay people and women.

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@Badqueen Again, you missed the point by a mile. I'm not talking about prisons. I am talking about male and female toilets at school.

How can you say to a gender questioning male student 'sorry, I know I call you she/her, but you're really a male, so you have to use the male toilets, sorry'.

How do you get around that? How do you call a male student female pronouns but that student has to use the male toilets that does not match their pronouns?

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:44

It's 1950s to think adults need to raise and discipline children? It's terrifying that people have such low expectations of parenting today.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:46

pointythings · 29/05/2022 11:26

You don't have a trans young person in your household, do you? If you did, you wouldn't be using this kind of extremist language. I am opposed to TRAs. I am also opposed to people who feel that young people exploring their identity should be ignored in schools. We've just made a few tiny steps forward - as I mentioned upthread, my youngest experienced that in school and it really helped them feel safe and enabled them to focus on academics. Suella Braverman says it's OK for schools to wipe all that out.

You can use all the extreme language you want and accuse me of all kinds of bullshit, but all that proves is that you're at the other extreme of the equation. And yes, that makes you just as bad.

@pointythings If you're replying to me, what 'extremist' language am I using?

You are the one blaming women for TRAs own decision not to use third spaces.

Your gaslighting, DARVO and victimising and blaming women for something that isn't even our fault is absolutely disgraceful and you should really be very ashamed of that comment.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 11:53

'Extremist'...

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 11:57

I do think that if TRAs hadn't gone in so ridiculously hard with 'no debate' etc etc then kids wouldn't be in a position where the pronouns that they desperately cling onto are the most important thing about them and that people not colluding in it is the absolute worst thing that could possibly ever happen.

lifeturnsonadime · 29/05/2022 11:59

So by that logic you'd be happy to treat an autistic child in a way that may be harmful, because they're trans. There's a few words for that kind of attitude.

BadQueen this is absolutely insane.

I am the parent of an autistic girl who is non gender conforming because those are normal autism traits. Sensory issues make boys clothes more comfortable and social communication issues mean that she finds it hard to keep up with the chit chat of her peers.

How do you suppose it would help my daughter to say that trans identity would be the answer to her problems and she is really a boy?

How would it stop the sexism she will experience in life?

If I tell her she's really a boy then she might go down the route of gender affirming treatment which would harm her healthy body, for what good?

Why do you reject the Cass report which states that affirming children is not a neutral act?

These children, particularly these vulnerable autistic girls, are being used as props to men who want to encroach on women's rights.

It is MUCH kinder to all children to tell our autistic girls that there is no wrong way to be a girl and to tell boys that they can wear what they want but it doesn't mean that they get access to spaces reserved for females which is how society has been set up to preserve the safety, dignity and equality for women and girls.

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 12:00

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 11:46

@pointythings If you're replying to me, what 'extremist' language am I using?

You are the one blaming women for TRAs own decision not to use third spaces.

Your gaslighting, DARVO and victimising and blaming women for something that isn't even our fault is absolutely disgraceful and you should really be very ashamed of that comment.

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You should be ashamed of your disablist attitude towards autistic children who you think should stop with their silly whims and sit down and shut up.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 12:04

lifeturnsonadime · 29/05/2022 11:59

So by that logic you'd be happy to treat an autistic child in a way that may be harmful, because they're trans. There's a few words for that kind of attitude.

BadQueen this is absolutely insane.

I am the parent of an autistic girl who is non gender conforming because those are normal autism traits. Sensory issues make boys clothes more comfortable and social communication issues mean that she finds it hard to keep up with the chit chat of her peers.

How do you suppose it would help my daughter to say that trans identity would be the answer to her problems and she is really a boy?

How would it stop the sexism she will experience in life?

If I tell her she's really a boy then she might go down the route of gender affirming treatment which would harm her healthy body, for what good?

Why do you reject the Cass report which states that affirming children is not a neutral act?

These children, particularly these vulnerable autistic girls, are being used as props to men who want to encroach on women's rights.

It is MUCH kinder to all children to tell our autistic girls that there is no wrong way to be a girl and to tell boys that they can wear what they want but it doesn't mean that they get access to spaces reserved for females which is how society has been set up to preserve the safety, dignity and equality for women and girls.

Exactly.

lifeturnsonadime · 29/05/2022 12:05

You should be ashamed of your disablist attitude towards autistic children who you think should stop with their silly whims and sit down and shut up

The ONLY reason that autistic children believe that being gender non conforming means that they are really the opposite sex is because adults are telling them so.

No one is objecting to any child presenting as they wish.

It is the fact that autistic children, who are vulnerable, are being used as props in the trans agenda which is disgusting.

What is really really vile is that you know that some of these children will go on to treatment which will make them infertile and you think that is OK.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 12:07

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 12:00

You should be ashamed of your disablist attitude towards autistic children who you think should stop with their silly whims and sit down and shut up.

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Oh enough with manipulative rubbish! I didn't say all questioning are autistic. I am autistic, btw, am I disablist towards myself?

How about you answer my previous question about how you can choose not to cause distress to a student by using their pronouns only then to turn around and cause distress by banning them from using the toilets that match their pronouns, instead of dodging it and deliberately putting words into my mouth.

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 12:07

What is really really vile is that you know that some of these children will go on to treatment which will make them infertile and you think that is OK

Where have i said that i think it's ok? You find the quote. I'll wait.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 12:09

@Badqueen Read lifeturnsonadime's posts and you may get it.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 12:10

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 12:07

What is really really vile is that you know that some of these children will go on to treatment which will make them infertile and you think that is OK

Where have i said that i think it's ok? You find the quote. I'll wait.

Everything about your posts have said that. Pronouns directly leads to these things.

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 12:10

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 12:07

Oh enough with manipulative rubbish! I didn't say all questioning are autistic. I am autistic, btw, am I disablist towards myself?

How about you answer my previous question about how you can choose not to cause distress to a student by using their pronouns only then to turn around and cause distress by banning them from using the toilets that match their pronouns, instead of dodging it and deliberately putting words into my mouth.

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I didn't put any words in your mouth. I'm done talking to you because quite frankly your attitude turns my stomach.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 12:11

lifeturnsonadime · 29/05/2022 12:05

You should be ashamed of your disablist attitude towards autistic children who you think should stop with their silly whims and sit down and shut up

The ONLY reason that autistic children believe that being gender non conforming means that they are really the opposite sex is because adults are telling them so.

No one is objecting to any child presenting as they wish.

It is the fact that autistic children, who are vulnerable, are being used as props in the trans agenda which is disgusting.

What is really really vile is that you know that some of these children will go on to treatment which will make them infertile and you think that is OK.

👏👏👏

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 12:13

Badqueen · 29/05/2022 12:10

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I'm done talking to you because quite frankly your attitude turns my stomach.

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And here you go running away when you know you cannot answer 'that' question honestly without destroying your narrative. Game, set and match. And believe me, your attitude turns my stomach far more than you know.

lifeturnsonadime · 29/05/2022 12:13

Badqueen

But you know that this is where it could lead.

That is what the Cass inquiry and report is about.

So how do you suppose that once these autistic girls are 'affirmed' it will not lead to a large proportion of autistic women being sterilised?

Cause and effect seem pretty clear here.

So you may not have said that you're OK with it but calling people who object to affirmation ableist indicates that you think that parents should unquestioningly affirm their children even if it leads to damaging their bodies.

If I am wrong about that , I apologise, but please explain how it is kind to tell an autistic girl with sensory issues that she is a boy when she is young then have objections to her taking a path that may lead to sexual dysfunction and sterilisation when she grows older?

Surely the kindest approach is that there is no wrong way to be a girl in the first place.