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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Say Well Done Suella Braverman.

295 replies

AnonIsUsuallyAWoman · 28/05/2022 00:32

Of course I'm not and I'm going to applaud her. Well Done and Thank You! Brava!

OP posts:
TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:02

Jott · 29/05/2022 13:52

No, I just have a life and don't spend all day on MN wringing my hands about the life choices of other people and spewing hatred about transpeople.

No, you just spend your time spewing hatred at women instead.

No one on here is spewing any hatred about transpeople. Wanting transpeople to have their own safe space while at the same time women have their safe space, and men also have their safe space (win-win-win) is not 'hate'. No one here has spewed any hatred at transpeople. But the same can't be said about hatred of women.... The toxic hatred of women, branding us hysterical even, for talking about a rape, shows the absolute hatred of women is viceral and palpable in this thread. If I didn't know better I would presume this was a Handmaids Tale mens supporter thread.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:03

lifeturnsonadime · 29/05/2022 14:00

As the parent of an autistic non gender confirming girl is it transphobic to ask how the affirmation model actually helps girls like my daughter, or is it a reasonable question to ask?

No one has answered my question.

I want to know if having safeguarding concerns makes me transphobic?

Unfortunately we both know the gender ideologues will never answer. And we know why. They don't even have the self respect or courage to try to answer it.

Jott · 29/05/2022 14:04

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:02

No, you just spend your time spewing hatred at women instead.

No one on here is spewing any hatred about transpeople. Wanting transpeople to have their own safe space while at the same time women have their safe space, and men also have their safe space (win-win-win) is not 'hate'. No one here has spewed any hatred at transpeople. But the same can't be said about hatred of women.... The toxic hatred of women, branding us hysterical even, for talking about a rape, shows the absolute hatred of women is viceral and palpable in this thread. If I didn't know better I would presume this was a Handmaids Tale mens supporter thread.

Do I, aye?

😴

You're not the least but interested in debate, just angry ranting. Crack on with yourself.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:04

ilovesooty · 29/05/2022 14:01

Try reading what I said. It appears you haven't.

I have. I answered your abusive and personal attack on me, and pointed out why you are wrong. I guess you'll run now too.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:06

Jott · 29/05/2022 14:04

Do I, aye?

😴

You're not the least but interested in debate, just angry ranting. Crack on with yourself.

Oh and there we go. Another 'I can't answer so I'll run instead'.

You are the one who is not the least bit interested in a discussion. All you do is rant, abuse women, and then run. I've asked numerous questions, numerous times. Yet none of your ilk has the integrity to answer them. Be honest. You are only interested in ranting and abusing women, you never had any intentions of participating in this discussion.

FOJN · 29/05/2022 14:08

LemonPalmTree · 29/05/2022 13:19

It’s interesting isn’t it that people on the reasonable side of the debate like @badqueen can say something utterly reasonable like “if a questioning child would like you to use different name or pronouns then it’s probably better for the child if you put your own prejudice aside”.

then you get the tone deaf responses from the FWR crew who think that there is NO nuance in this debate, boys must be boys (in trousers) and girls must be girls (in skirts) because they have to learn “boundaries” as one charmer put it. where’s the harm in having a gender neutral uniform? What’s wrong with letting boys have the option of wearing skirts if they want to?

you should be breaking down gender stereotypes and yet here you are celebrating children being forced back into their boxes. The reason it wasn’t a thing 20 years ago was because it wasn’t an option back then. If it was something you wanted to do you’d have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Now children are freer to express themselves and all you’ve got is hysteria over toilets and prisons and mastectomies. The vast majority of children experimenting with pronouns and clothes will never go on to transition .

Respecting name and pronouns would be entirely reasonable if it did not lead to some children mistakenly being set on a transition pathway which leads to irreversible changes to their bodies, including loss of fertility and sexual function. The interim Cass Report was very clear that affirmation not is not a neutral choice, it has consequences. Affirmation only is being challenged because of safeguarding concerns not prejudice. You reveal your own prejudices when you refer to concerns about women and girls safety and dignity as hysteria. It doesn't offend me, I'm proud to be "hysterical" about minors having their breasts removed before they are even old enough to be deemed responsible enough to hold a driving license. We are conducting a live experiment on children, it is very reasonable to ask for compelling evidence of the benefits of hormones and surgery for minors.

I think you have misunderstood the feminist position completely. Feminists would argue you should wear whatever makes you feel comfortable or best represents your own personal style. Clothes are just clothes, what you wear does not make you a boy or a girl.

I think like many people you want to be tolerant and progressive but have perhaps not done the research necessary to understand all issues at stake.

Jott · 29/05/2022 14:10

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:06

Oh and there we go. Another 'I can't answer so I'll run instead'.

You are the one who is not the least bit interested in a discussion. All you do is rant, abuse women, and then run. I've asked numerous questions, numerous times. Yet none of your ilk has the integrity to answer them. Be honest. You are only interested in ranting and abusing women, you never had any intentions of participating in this discussion.

And yet I'm not the one getting angry...?

Like I said, crack on with yourself because I won't be engaging with you further. Posts like yours are why the discussion can't be had, you're more interested in derailing the thread with frothing than actually discussing it calmly and rationally.

Enjoy, you won the thread. Here's your trophy 🏆

ilovesooty · 29/05/2022 14:14

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:04

I have. I answered your abusive and personal attack on me, and pointed out why you are wrong. I guess you'll run now too.

I talked about the impression the way you express yourself is creating as far as I see it. If you consider that an abusive personal attack, please feel free to report it.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:18

Jott · 29/05/2022 14:10

And yet I'm not the one getting angry...?

Like I said, crack on with yourself because I won't be engaging with you further. Posts like yours are why the discussion can't be had, you're more interested in derailing the thread with frothing than actually discussing it calmly and rationally.

Enjoy, you won the thread. Here's your trophy 🏆

Actually you are the one getting angry. You're the one frothing. Read your own posts back. Your anger, and your hatred of women is clear to see. Your gaslighting of me and accusing me of what you yourself are doing is exactly what the trans lobby does. Violently abuse people, gaslight, and DARVO. And why do they do this? Because they know they can't answer the hard questions that need to be asked. You're simply Exhibit C on this thread. No discussion, you just want to rant, froth and abuse. And then deflect your own behaviour onto others.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:19

ilovesooty · 29/05/2022 14:14

I talked about the impression the way you express yourself is creating as far as I see it. If you consider that an abusive personal attack, please feel free to report it.

The way I express myself? And how is that, exactly?

Or do you mean as a female I am supposed to be nice, quiet, and not speak up for other women? Don't ever raise my voice? In other words I am not 'womaning properly'.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:22

Jott · 28/05/2022 18:44

This.

She's an idiot and her comments were disgusting. Children having identity worries need mental health support to help them work through matters, they don't need to be told "we're not pandering to you, suck it up".

She can go fuck herself, frankly.

@Jott This.
She's an idiot and her comments were disgusting. Children having identity worries need mental health support to help them work through matters, they don't need to be told "we're not pandering to you, suck it up".
She can go fuck herself, frankly.

Your first post in this thread was frothing with bile and anger. It actually makes you sound quite unhinged. So look in your own mirror before DARVOing your behaviour on me.

ilovesooty · 29/05/2022 14:23

I think the way you express yourself is there for all to see. People can draw their own conclusions,which may or may not be the same as mine. As I said, if you feel I have attacked you in any way which breaches Talk Guidlines, you are of course free to report.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:24

Jott · 28/05/2022 19:01

And a big old fuck you to the children caught in the crossfire of your transphobia, yeah?

And a big old fuck you to the children caught in the crossfire of your transphobia, yeah?

Yet another angry post by you, one where you accuse another poster of 'transphobia' with absolutely no grounds or reason.

TalkingCat · 29/05/2022 14:27

ilovesooty · 29/05/2022 14:23

I think the way you express yourself is there for all to see. People can draw their own conclusions,which may or may not be the same as mine. As I said, if you feel I have attacked you in any way which breaches Talk Guidlines, you are of course free to report.

I have no problems at all with how I've expressed myself. I've used clear English language, no swearing. Unlike some others. I have been direct and post in good faith, eager to engage. I always attempt to answer any questions asked of me. I mistakenly expected the same in return.

That you still can't say what the problem is with how I express myself is interesting and says so much.

ilovesooty · 29/05/2022 14:33

It might be interesting to you. Your perception of your expression is different to my impression, evidently. That's common on this site. As I said, if you feel my comments on your expression are abusive or constitute personal attack or a breach of Talk Guidlines, you are at liberty to report.

SidewaysOtter · 29/05/2022 14:43

then you get the tone deaf responses from the FWR crew who think that there is NO nuance in this debate, boys must be boys (in trousers) and girls must be girls (in skirts) because they have to learn “boundaries” as one charmer put it.

As I may or may not be the “charmer” in question, I said nothing about gendered uniform. My point was about the general concept of a uniform and children having to wear it instead of something they’d prefer. There is nothing to stop uniforms being non-gendered.

TankFlyBossW4lk · 29/05/2022 15:30

'She's an idiot and her comments were disgusting. Children having identity worries need mental health support to help them work through matters, they don't need to be told "we're not pandering to you, suck it up".

She can go fuck herself, frankly.'

This. Couldn't agree more

RamblingEclectic · 29/05/2022 15:38

Does anyone ever think that young people are brainwashed into this gender issue.

I'd say less brainwashed and more they've been given this framework as part of wider conversations of adulthood and they're running with it.

I've had some teens and tweens disclose to me that they thought they might be trans. Thankfully, none of them had any distress with their bodies, just some normal annoyances. Talking with them, I think they're just taking what pieces they have to figure things out when they don't have anything else.

A couple of examples: one was an older teen boy who had spent years having people tease him for being feminine, called him a girl, and so on. He disclosed he had an interest in things like skirts and spent lockdown regrowing out his hair and having mixed feelings about his bullies being 'right' and that he might be trans. He mainly needed no judgement, no expectations space to talk it all out.

Another was a 12 year old girl who, like many, was dealing with a lot of issues around what's expected of girls. She said she was 'thinking of going non-binary' entirely because she hated those expectations and hearing how she wasn't really a girl because she wasn't good at this or that as a girl she should like that. She knew she would always be female, she just hated those comparisons and thought going non-binary was the solution as she's been taught the definition of 'being neither girl or boy'. Again, space to talk about it, how that I could see why she would think that but it had its limits, and we worked out ways she could try things like doing sports outside of school where she doesn't have to be compared and using D&D characters to try out neutral names so she doesn't need to 'out' herself at school. I did correct a friend who joined a later conversation to ask if she's picked a 'non-binary name yet' that any new name would be hers, not a gender's name.

We have kids in a stressful society, being pushed to think about their futures all the time (I fucking hate that at 11-12, kids are being talked what looks good on their CVs). They given gender identity information in a not very different way to sexuality and 'aspirational' career information as part of considering the future rather than like religion/ethnicity/cultural concepts that might suit it better. There is very little space for many kids to actually digest and consider those frameworks beyond the definitions they've been taught and see around them. Like I said, I don't view it as brainwashing, I view it as a limited framework that schools and others feel they should be teaching somewhere and have largely fit it in to relationship and sex education. Kids are working with what they've got while like every generation trying to work out their emotions and place in society. Discussing how limited any framework is needs become part of it, I think.

SidewaysOtter · 29/05/2022 17:08

A good post, @RamblingEclectic

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 18:07

There are some good points being made on this thread that are getting lost in all.the shit slinging.

LondonWolf · 29/05/2022 19:37

Some really excellent, insightful, informed posts on this thread, especially around autism, just being dismissed and shut down as being cruel and bigoted.

At the risk of sounding patronising but being completely genuine, I can understand it though. The cognitive dissonance must be unbearable. When you've invested so much and built your life around beliefs that determine almost every parenting decision you make it must be very difficult to roll back from that, not to mention giving up the very positive public attention that has been paid to such children and their families over the past several years.

TomPinch · 29/05/2022 21:11

Jott · 29/05/2022 13:52

No, I just have a life and don't spend all day on MN wringing my hands about the life choices of other people and spewing hatred about transpeople.

Then why don't you go and live it then? You're here just to put the boot in. You certainly don't seem to be trying to persuade anyone that you're right. It's all very well annoying people, but doesn't it occur to your that your side is losing the argument and you need people - including people here - on your side?

Jott · 30/05/2022 00:05

Why do I need people on my side? And why do I need to persuade anyone that I'm right? Last I checked we weren't be graded on contributions to the thread and there's no obligation to defend every little comment. I've given my opinion, I've shared the situation with my child, if you don't like it then that's down to you, not me.

Overthewine · 30/05/2022 00:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Jott · 30/05/2022 00:37

Just because I don't agree with you on trans issues? Nice.