To Say Well Done Suella Braverman.

[AnonIsUsuallyAWoman]

Of course I'm not and I'm going to applaud her. Well Done and Thank You! Brava!

Schools should be sensitive to children who are in distress for whatever reason and treat them with kindness and care. But I'm not sure that unquestioning acceptance is the way to go. A lot of children go through gender confusion as a temporary phase or because something else is going on (like undiagnosed autism in girls) and I don't believe it's right to automatically agree that they are definitely trans and start treating them as if they were the opposite sex.

The pronoun thing is just stupid anyway - 'she' denotes female and 'he' denotes male. Language has meaning, as much as TRA might like to pretend otherwise.

I can't read the linked article but I would be very surprised if it was as blunt as 'suck it up'. But I'll be honest, too much time has been spent indulging TRA at the expense of everyone else. It's dangerous and it has no place in schools

@Jott you are so right. My youngest started questioning their identity in Yr11. Their 6th form fully respected their pronouns. It gave them a sense of safety at school and a sense of belonging. How the fuck is that a bad thing?

Unfortunately a lot of people who know absolutely bollocks all about child development have pushed the trans agenda to the point where now there is definitely a social contagion going on in schools (partly clearly evidenced by the fact that it is overwhelmingly teenage girls who are wanting to transition).

These people, such as Mermaids, went into schools and told children that if they identify with Barbie they have a girls gender identity and if they identify with GI Joe they have a boys gender identity. They also gave schools advice to teachers including telling teachers that if a child tells them they are trans they should tell the child that they will keep that information secret for them - a safeguarding red flag.

I think we are now seeing the backlash against all this and, as these things so often do, it's going to the other extreme.

I think Bannerman is right about female spaces and the twisting of the EA to gaslight schools and the females within them into thinking they have to accept males into their spaces. I don't agree that schools should just tell kids that their pronouns are horseshit and their identities are not valid. These children have grown up with this crap, we can't just abandon them now. Suella Bannerman is another who probably knows nothing about kids.

I do think that we need to start working on undoing some of the damage that the likes of Mermaids has done with regards to gender stereotypes, start hammering it home to girls that being a female doesn't mean they have to act like a Kardashian, that they can identify however they like but no one can actually change sex and that they are perfect the way they are, no cross sex hormones or mastectomies required.

Sorry, I have said 'Bannerman' several times, I mean Braverman!

I find the drawing of parallels with section 28 baffling.

Gender ideology is inherently incompatible with same sex attraction. Much of GI rhetoric is extremely homophobic. See the ridiculous comments made in the Allison Bailey trial this week about lesbians who do not want to consider transwomen in their dating pool for example.

Being gay didn't require anyone to do anything. No one else had to give up any rights to enable gay and lesbian people to have the same. No one had to deny or lie about their own material reality for gay rights. Gay rights were won through discussion, debate, disagreement and conversation - #nodebate for transrights and their implications is a very very different kettle of fish.

I quite agree.

But apparently there must be #nodebate on the matter because to do so is transphobia 🙄

Sorry but my DC is non-binary and that's their choice. No one else's. If it's a phase then fine.
We've pandered far more to other groups in school than teachers being asked to use they/them or whatever pronouns make a kid happy. And after the shitshow of the last few years frankly she needs to get a grip and show some respect to kids.

Exactly this.

clearly evidenced by the fact that it is overwhelmingly teenage girls who are wanting to transition

I'd say that's more to do with how girls and women are treated by society and the idea that it would be better to be a boy and benefit from male privilege rather than being a girl and subject to it.

Yes exactly - social contagion. Its a social issue rather than something inherent.

I sorry but not many people care about these young people now. It was the inevitable outcome of the relentless, bullying, authoritarian approach of trans rights activists. It's no good getting angry at those pushing back on it. The responsibility lies in one place and as the mother of an autistic girl - the demographic most affected by this damaging ideology - I am relieved that the push back has arrived but worried about those kids who have been sacrificed to it.

I'm convinced there are people who celebrate Eva Braun for being the first girl boss feminist.

Just respecting how a child wants to be addressed is the decent thing to do. It doesn't mean you're encouraging them to transition. Why should someone not be treated with kindness and decency just because they're under 18?

Yes you are being massively unreasonable. It's easy to say the right things (and the tories excel at saying things the public want to hear: it's called populism) but dig a bit deeper and I ok at her voting record. She is no friend of children.

I disagree with several statements here and have read The Times article.

Those who state it is necessary to 'use requested pronouns' in order to be kind are wrong. You can be kind and respectful without actually entering into their belief system. It is unkind to demand that someone must agree with them and practice their beliefs - in fact it is intolerant to other's beliefs.

Whilst many young people experience mental distress, the way in which they express this can be socially problematic - self harm, refusing to eat, refusing to attend school, misuse of alcohol and drugs. We can empathise with them but we do them no good in always agreeing with them that they know best. We may in fact do them harm. The demands of gender ideologists are particularly harmful - to individuals and to society.

School is an area to learn, and to be kept safe - that's it. It's not an arena for you to express yourself or to have your belief system reinforced.

This is not about sexuality, this is about belief. But both of these require consent of others to participate - no-one should be forced to participate in someone else's belief system - not in school or anyone else.

@LondonWolf my youngest is also autistic. They do not know whether or not they want to transition (I deliberately use 'they' because it's nobody's business what they were born). They have a lot to work out in therapy and they know it. But not having their pronouns respected doesn't help them. It doesn't help anyone. The people currently pushing back are just as bad as the TRAs. Everyone on the extreme needs to give their head a good slap and start thinking about what's the best thing for our young people. As always it will lie somewhere in the middle.

And nobody should have to put up with being told that because they're a child it's OK not to listen to them.

This is populist bullshit - Braverman doesn't care about anyone let alone children.

But not having their pronouns respected doesn't help them. It doesn't help anyone.

It helps those who don't want to use compelled speech and be forced to partake in someone else's very recent belief system. We will never agree on this but I genuinely hope things go well for your child.

If you are genuinely convinced about this, it might be an idea to get out more.

It's such a tricky one - a really important lesson for children to learn is that you cannot control how others see you, and you cannot force people to see you as something you are not. Continuing to perpetuate the idea to young people that you can do this, probably isn't going to help them in the long run.

But on the other hand, the teenage years are so tricky, and for children who have been brought up with gender bullshit, to suddenly be told that their pronouns and identity is completely meaningless will be very difficult to deal with and will cause further identity issues.

I really hope this pronoun crap and the importance that young people have attached to it is over by the time mine are teenagers. TRAs have a lot to answer for.

I’m really intrigued by this idea that people have pronouns. I always thought that it was languages - which are collective, not individual - which had pronouns. Do we think this extreme individualism is invariably healthy? Is it a good idea to teach children they have an expect to control how others think and speak about them? Because that’s an impossibility, isn’t it.

Does anyone ever think that young people are brainwashed into this gender issue. I often feel that some of them might think it is "cool" to declare that they want to or are actually transitioning. It is a very new thing really that affects a minuscule number of children. Unless they feel that to be noticed they must do something kind of radical, and they know because of TRA they cannot be questioned.

I also feel that gender confusion or whatever you would like to call it is the result of psychological issues. Those issues should be addressed before welcoming a child who declares they are the opposite sex with open arms and no questioning.

I note that a pp mentioned that girls who are on the AS often express a wish to transition. Isn't it odd then that the most vocal of trans are male to female, and all the angst for all women that brings. In other words, girls transitioning is of no issue, but boys to girls, whoa..... you are going to take our spaces and so on.

I'd love to have the nerve to say it is a fad, a fashion statement, a rebellious thing, looking for a reaction, and in some I would say that is the case. But I reckon most of them are muddled up teenagers looking for a place in society, and many of them are far too immature and young to know what they want yet.

Section 28 forced an ideological approach on schools. This is literally the opposite. It says they're free to choose and do not have to conform to an ideological approach.

She’s not saying they should not have help, she’s saying that the school should not play along with the delusion.

She’s right. We don’t agree with an anorexic that they are obese, which is an analogous condition.

There is nothing transphobic about treating gender dysphoria as the psychological condition that it is. Telling a confused child that they are born in the wrong body is wrong. The whole concept is ludicrous. We are our bodies, there is no innate gender.