To Say Well Done Suella Braverman.

[AnonIsUsuallyAWoman]

Of course I'm not and I'm going to applaud her. Well Done and Thank You! Brava!

You somehow think you've "won"? No I'm just bored of you.

I'll carry on living my life believing that autistic children are deserving of respect; there's more to life than arguing with disablist people on Mumsnet.

I have, and you know it. Or else you'd be able to answer a simple question before going on to ignore me.

By 'disablist' I take it you mean yourself. Since as a person with a disability, I am 'disablist' against myself. You've clearly never met an autistic person before, and don't care for how vulnerable we are, which is disgusting.

I am not,

that should be.

So you may not have said that you're OK with it but calling people who object to affirmation ableist indicates that you think that parents should unquestioningly affirm their children even if it leads to damaging their bodies

You're right, i didn't say i was ok with it at all.

I was objecting to talking cats identifying that most GNC children are autistic but also saying that those children should stop being silly, the adults are in charge, those children should be disciplined and questioning their gender is nothing more than a silly whim that they should get over.

Very much like attitudes when i was growing up when people felt "discipline" could cure autism. That's disablist. If you're happy to stand by that poster then I've got nothing more to say to you either.

Face it, you can't answer the question, because you know darn well if your argument is to not cause distress, then you can't justify causing distress by forcing them to use the bathroom that doesn't match their pronouns.

Your whole argument just fell like a pack of cards.

And you know it. And we all know it.

BadQueen

Please answer my questions on why you think it is kind to autistic girls to tell them they are boys when it won't stop them from experiencing sexism and it may lead to a path where they modify their bodies resulting in sterilisation and reduced sexual function?

How will it help autistic girls with their actual issues which tend to be sensory processing disorder and social communication issues to tell them that because they are not like 'the other girls' they must be boys?

Because I really don't think you understand the implications of what you are saying for some of the most vulnerable children in our society.

I never said that most are autistic. I never said any such thing. And by discipline I don't mean hitting or violence or shouting. In my world, discipline is kind, fair but firm guidance. Sorry for ruining your narrative of me being the 1950s aggressive baddie.

But it's interesting that you are lining up your 'out' by saying If you're happy to stand by that poster then I've got nothing more to say to you either.

Which gives you an easy 'out' not to answer their valid questions about drugs.

You really just look for a way out don't you. You honestly believe we can't see that you are dodging the hard questions, so instead you pick a fight so you can find an out. You're so transparent.

Thank you for your kind words.

I'm actually saddened to see what else this person has voted down. Gay rights to me seem such a given and I fail to see why anyone still has that ingrained negativity towards something that really doesn't effect them.

I am concerned as a female though that some people will twist trans rights to gain access to female spaces, and I'm aware of rapes in women's jail's by self identifying, male presenting prisoners. That's not acceptable at all, and needs addressing.

However, this is not the first time or situation that a nasty person has taken advantage of a situation for the wrong reasons. The church and some teachers for instance where adults took advantage of vulnerable people and children. Even Scouting has had its issues with sexual violence.

I believe though that we can't outlaw things because of a small minority. We have to adapt, bring in rules for safety. Safe spaces and choices for everyone.

If my DC decides to go back to female pronouns we will support them once again.

I worry more though that people like Suella and her supporters are dangerous because it's not just pronouns she is against, is it? It's homosexuality, and female rights to abortion. If we turn a blind eye to one struggle where will we stand when she moves onto the next right wing conspiracy?

All of this is a result of people like Mermaids going into schools and telling children utter shit like this. Of course they are backtracking on a lot of it now because it's being exposed as the regressive bollocks that it is, but I think a lot of the damage has now been done.

So many kids think that if they don't conform to the stereotypes of the sex, they are in fact the opposite sex. This is even more prevalent in children with autism.

And for those who are saying 'it's only pronouns', remember that every young woman who has undergone a double mastectomy and is now on cross sex hormones and will be a lifelong medical patient, they all started with pronouns.

Maybe because 20 odd years ago people were too scared to be honest?

I remember the amount of gay slurs chucked around when I was at school and I left in 1998. Even when Queer as Folk was on, the media slagged it and wanted it banned. The Sun specifically was disgusting over the first lesbian kiss on Brookside- in the 90s! There was anger of a gay character kissing his male friend as he got the signals wrong in Byker Grove- parenting groups wanted it banned. Again, that was the nineties.

Just as since leaving school a few classmates have since come out, this is no different. People felt they couldn't. My dad thought I fancied a girl when I said I thought Brian Moloko from Placebo was gorgeous when they appeared on top of the Pops in 1998. He looked on the verge of a heart attack and I recall having to grab my Kerrang magazine to "prove" I wasn't listing after a girl.

Times have changed. Kids have the net and message boards. They can talk on WhatsApp rather than covert chats on the house phone. They are more socially aware.

For instance. We had a great male teacher. We loved him to bits. Girls fancied him. He was variously snogging most young female teachers depending on where you got your school based gossip from.

A fellow classmate of mine finally decided to be open about their sexuality, about ten years after we left school. His situation was difficult due to religion. So he decided to go and "try out" a gay club in the next town over.
Who did he bump into? The teacher. When asked why he let us all think he was getting off with the pretty geography teacher or the married maths teacher, he explained that back then, it wasn't worth the aggro of admitting to being gay. That certain families would've called for him to be sacked. And actually, it was no one's business.

That was a grown adult! We've moved on and sadly some, like Suella, are still in that negative mindset.

I feel it's very disingenuous to compare being gay to transgender. Trans seems to be a social contagion in schools and mainly affects vulnerable children. The amount of children who feel that if they don't fit the stereotype of being a female or a male means they are transgender has increased around 600% in some schools.

So can we please, please stop comparing this to gay struggles? It's nothing even remotely in the same stratosphere. Especially since trans ideology at it's fundamental, is HOMOPHOBIC. Gay and trans are direct opposite - and in fact, enemies of each other. So it is in extremely poor taste to even compare the two, and deeply offensive to gay men and lesbians who are told that sex isn't real and they're transphobic if their homosexuality isn't 'inclusive' of the opposite sex. It's deeply offensive even comparing the two and very hurtful for gay people.

*vulnerable children, rather than adults. My second sentence should say.

It’s interesting isn’t it that people on the reasonable side of the debate like @badqueen can say something utterly reasonable like “if a questioning child would like you to use different name or pronouns then it’s probably better for the child if you put your own prejudice aside”.

then you get the tone deaf responses from the FWR crew who think that there is NO nuance in this debate, boys must be boys (in trousers) and girls must be girls (in skirts) because they have to learn “boundaries” as one charmer put it. where’s the harm in having a gender neutral uniform? What’s wrong with letting boys have the option of wearing skirts if they want to?

you should be breaking down gender stereotypes and yet here you are celebrating children being forced back into their boxes. The reason it wasn’t a thing 20 years ago was because it wasn’t an option back then. If it was something you wanted to do you’d have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Now children are freer to express themselves and all you’ve got is hysteria over toilets and prisons and mastectomies. The vast majority of children experimenting with pronouns and clothes will never go on to transition .

“Now children are freer to express themselves and all you’ve got is hysteria over toilets and prisons and mastectomies”

it’s always useful when posters show their misogyny in an early post.

all these silly hysterical women not wanting to share spaces with males and worried about teenage girls getting their breasts removed. How ridiculous of them!

4w.pub/tiktok-gender-doctor-per-breast-removal-on-13-year-old-girl/amp/

silly women objecting to or worried about this.

There is nothing reasonable about that poster. They made false claims about posters, weren't able to even defend their own position on it, and created fights to deliberately lay the ground to not have to answer. We answered their point about using pronouns with but what happens when that student wants their pronouns validated by using the other bathroom? She had....no answer. Refused to answer in fact, because they know ever so clearly that there is no answer. The 'be kind and use pronouns' thing is a house of cards that collapses right at that point, and they know it. We all know it.

I think you will find many of us support gender neutral uniforms. For the very reason it avoids girls/boys stereotypes, and girls prefer trousers.

“boundaries” as one charmer put it.

Yes, how very dare girls and women have boundaries. Don't we know we aren't supposed to have them, that we are not entitled to boundaries?

you should be breaking down gender stereotypes and yet here you are celebrating children being forced back into their boxes.

That is exactly what we are doing! By saying you don't need to change gender. It's the TRAs and their apologists that are pushing gender stereotypes. It's us "FWR" people down are breaking down stereotypes. People like you want to push gender stereotypes by supporting this.

The reason it wasn’t a thing 20 years ago was because it wasn’t an option back then. If it was something you wanted to do you’d have stuck out like a sore thumb.

No, the reason it wasn't a thing 20 years ago is because it wasn't a social contagion and social media didn't exist. I don't believe there truly are 600% jump in truly transgender or questioning children, but that is what is being reported. 600%. It's akin to a fad, a social contagion.

Now children are freer to express themselves and all you’ve got is hysteria over toilets and prisons and mastectomies. The vast majority of children experimenting with pronouns and clothes will never go on to transition .

What a charmer. 'Hysteria'. Do you know the origins of that chauvinist, misogynistic slur traditionally used by men against women?

And no, it is not 'hysteria' at all, women are being RAPED and SEXUALLY ASSAULTED in toilets and prisons. Children are getting early onset Osteoporosis from drugs given to them, girls are being breast binders without their parents permission. People who've used these drugs and had bits chopped off or added are reporting they are completely unable to orgasm. This is a very serious thing, and you are clearly deeply ill-informed as to what is truly going on. How about you do some research and educate yourself before coming on here, insulting women, and calling us 'hysterical' and saying that rapes and assaults in toilets and prisons are no big deal and much ado about nothing. You have absolutely no idea the breadth of this. You have no idea at all, @LemonPalmTree . Women can't even use rape crisis centres anymore now after they've been raped in a womens toilet. You have absolutely no idea what you're defending.

Sensible balanced posts like yours just aren't going to be listened to.

There is nothing 'sensible' or 'balanced' about that poster's posts. Their posts are quite unbalanced and absurd. Saying women are responsible for trans people not accepting third spaces, when us women have begged them to accept third spaces. Saying that not using pronouns will cause 'distress', but forcing them to use a bathroom they don't identify with somehow 'won't'.

Go figure that one out. How does that make sense? It doesn't. They know it. And you know it.

The trans ideology supporters cannot defend their own stance, and they know it. When the error of supporting pronouns but not changerooms/bathrooms is pointed out, they run for the hills. They have no credibility, and no argument.

The sensible and balanced posters who point out the logical fallacy of the ideologists' arguments is there for all to see, but those ideologists who are too stubborn, so wedded to their ideology that they don't ever want to admit they're wrong will never listen to us because they'd rather run than lose face and admit the absurdity of their position.

@TalkingCat your posts don't come across as remotely calm, or indeed measured. You seem intent on steamrollering anyone with an alternative point of view. I find the way you express yourself disturbing - and that's without even looking at the content of your posts.

Don't go talking sense now, the frothers will over-froth themselves

Woah, that is quite the straw man you have created there!!!

No, I just have a life and don't spend all day on MN wringing my hands about the life choices of other people and spewing hatred about transpeople.

Pretending that a girl is actually a boy because she doesn't conform to female stereotypes is absolutely not progressive. It's that kind of thing that keeps kids firmly in the boxes of 'girls are like this, boys are like this' and isngoing to do absolutely bugger all to break down stereotypes.

So any discussion where anyone disagrees with you is 'steamrollering'? I find that disturbing. If advocating for safe spaces for women, and if pointing out that a child at school may find it distressing not being about to use the toilet that match their pronouns is 'disturbing' to you, then I am glad I am disturbing. I'd rather be that than the other way around, which is cause fights, refuse to answer questions, run off, blame women for trans people not wanting third spaces, calling rapes and assaults 'hysteria'. I find that, very disturbing.

As the parent of an autistic non gender confirming girl is it transphobic to ask how the affirmation model actually helps girls like my daughter, or is it a reasonable question to ask?

No one has answered my question.

I want to know if having safeguarding concerns makes me transphobic?

Try reading what I said. It appears you haven't.