DS21 threatened DD18

[Safarigiraffe]

Today when me/husband were at work DS was in the bathroom & DD had just got ready to leave to go to college. DD knocked on bathroom door & asked my son to hurry up as she was on a tight schedule to get the bus to leave, DS said to her no you have to wait and DD became agitated and started shouting at him to hurry up.
DS then came out the bathroom shoving daughter back in the stomach hard shouting/swearing & intimidating her so DD at this point was very visibly upset & shaking as it wasn’t like my son to react on this way and went to the bathroom to which DS then pushed the door open again shouting/swearing in her face.
DD was at college crying on/off all day, now we have spoken to DD & to DD saying this must never happen again, DS is refusing to apologise & DD never wants to speak to him ever again saying she now feels uncomfortable to be in the house with him however we both work and can’t take time off. (DD is at college DS at Uni)
Can anyone advise of the best way forward here
Many thanks to everyone

Sorry, not taking the bait of you contorting whatever I say into 'so she was asking for it??'

I've made it plain he was out of order but given he's already looking to move out I'm not sure what further advice the OP wants given it's hard to meaningfully punish a 21 year old.

@SleeplessInEngland

It's not bait! You seemed to agree his behaviour was totally unacceptable but also said in the same post that people were going overboard and then "I'm guessing they were like this growing up too." and I genuinely don't understand what you mean? That 'they' were the kind of people to go overboard growing up too?

But that’s exactly what you’re saying.

She would rile him and he would snap.

Its bonkers isnt it. If a child of mine called police on a sibling id understand but i would hope to be able to deal with it without getting the bloody cops involved

Gosh so many buts on here. Very very disappointing. I can only assume it's mostly knee jerk reactions from mother's of sons.

It's never alright to lay hands on another BUT ...
He shouldn't have used violence BUT ...
It would be unacceptable normally BUT ...
He's behaved badly BUT ...
Yes technically he assaulted her BUT ...

But but fucking but ...

I hope alll the butter's would be happy with any of the excuses if it was them on the receiving end of the violence from an adult man.

Oh ... yeah ... it's her fault really because she shouted at the poor maaaaan.

DD knocked on bathroom door & asked my son to hurry up as she was on a tight schedule to get the bus to leave, DS said to her no you have to wait and DD became agitated and started shouting at him to hurry up.

They both need talking to.
Your DD needs to stop shouting at people who get in her way. Your DS needs to learn how to control himself when someone winds him up.

Laiste

I used to wind my brother up big time. He never retaliated verbally or physically but he should have done. I was out of order.

Your poor daughter has the right to feel safe in her own home and you need to stop minimising your sons vile behaviour, there's no excuse for it!

My brother used to do things to make me late for work. He thought it was funny to bully me and he used to get away with it. I'm NC with my whole family now.

I’m so shocked by the victim blaming and excusing on this thread.

If an 18 year old woman was similarly assaulted in the street by a 21 year old man would that be ok?

If this was a husband and wife would that be ok?

I grew up in a house where ‘it was just siblings fighting’ and I’m NC with my brother (it was drugs in his case) and I would be genuinely terrified if I had to be alone with him now.

I won’t accept any level of violence in my home, it’s domestic abuse.

It sounds like DD was being a pain and shouting and banging on the door so he lost it a bit

I'd just let them deal with it between themselves

He should have retaliated physically to your shouting? Is that what you're saying? You deserved it?? The age old excuse for male on female violence. ''But she was out of order so i put her in her place''. Dear god.

I hope you don't have daughters.

This is how I would deal with it too, although I think you need to understand how your dd is feeling. If she is scared to be in the same house as him alone, then that puts a different slant on it and he would need to be seriously remorseful for his actions, and DD to be fully on board with him staying in the house.

Sibling abuse is very real and rarely taken seriously, as many posters on here have expressed their lives and relationships with their family have suffered because of abuse not being taken seriously.

It sounds like there is something going on with your son, and I do think you and your DH need to get to the bottom of it, saying it's all sorted is not acceptable and he needs to understand there are very real consequences for assaulting someone.

As a pp showed when turned to involve a husband and his wife everyone would be taking this a lot more seriously, my personality would allow me to offer the person a second chance, my DH has never been violent in any way to me, if this scenario occurred it would be so out of character I would give him the chance to rectify with a heartfelt apology and the promise that any signs of subsequent violence would without discussion be the end of our marriage, the remorse would be the first step though, if there was no remorse there would be no second chance.

I understand posters saying kick him out, but I do think if DD is ok with it, then it could be resolved without resorting to that, but she has to be the lead on this, her safety matters more than his feelings.

If he ''lost it a bit'' with a future girlfriend or wife ?

I can imagine the scene. Well officer it was ok when i lost it a bit with my sister so i thought ....

If your 18 year old woman on the street approached a man or woman (quietly going about his daily business) and started shouting at them to get out of her way, hurry up - what would happen?

She’d get a full on mouthful at best.

This guy is 21 years old. We're not talking about 11 or 12 year olds.

Same here.

My brother was a bully my whole childhood, I remember my dancing teacher pulling me aside when I was about 8 because I was covered in bruises from him pinching me.

I left home to go to uni at 18 and came back in the first summer, he was a year older than me but still living at home. My mum and dad were on holiday and during that time he physically assaulted me - pushed me up against a wall and choked me - because I was moaning about him leaving the place a mess and not feeding the cats. I never even told my parents because they had ignored or minimised his behaviour so much in the past.

I have literally never been alone with him since and we now haven't spoken for nearly a decade.

I do think you need to be very honest with yourselves about whether this really is out of character for him and what the sibling relationship is normally like. But don't excuse or minimise it, it doesn't matter if your daughter was being a complete pain in the arse, he had no right to react that way.

I find it quite odd when people try and liken family member dynamics between children or siblings to intimate partner violence or stranger attacks.
They dont come from the same power dynamics or for same reason, therefore they are dealt with differently.
Both these siblings are adults in law and if they are finding the situation intolerable then they are not obliged to live there.
If someone was harrassing another person in a student houseshare to get out of the bathroom, then i bet it would have a fair chance of blowing up too.
The reason she didnt deserve to be shoved is because noone should shove anyone, but in law they would very likely take the tack that this was an infortunate escalation of immature sibling rivalry.

I wouldnt allow the son to just say its sorted and to leave it, because its serious. Boys and young men need coming down on like a ton of bricks if they square up to a woman, but i think kicking him out would do more harm than good, and long term harm too.

I do think if DD is ok with it, then it could be resolved without resorting to that, but she has to be the lead on this, her safety matters more than his feelings

She's not ok with it! OP reports DD saying she feels uncomfortable with him and never wants to speak to him again! He is unrepentant so there's no other option, is there?

I imagine if there was reasonable concern for safety then a man might be excused for shoving a strange woman out of the way in the street.

But that isn't the scenario so what's it got to do with anything?

If your 18 year old woman on the street approached a man or woman (quietly going about his daily business) and started shouting at them to get out of her way, hurry up - what would happen? She’d get a full on mouthful at best.

... and if he shoved her it would still be physical assault.

How odd to equate someone shouting to hurry up in the household's bathroom with someone running up to a stranger and shouting at them to hurry up. They aren't remotely the same thing.

Its ok that I shouted my mouth off and he just stood there and took it?

I don’t think violence should be condoned in any situation but neither should verbal abuse/ shouting.

@Branleuse - Boys and young men need coming down on like a ton of bricks if they square up to a woman, but i think kicking him out would do more harm than good, and long term harm too.

What does coming down like a ton of bricks look like with a 21 year old man? If it's not asking him to leave?

And have you read the post above yours?

They are not the same thing.

She was aggressive (shouting)
He took it to the next level (physical)

Neither is acceptable.

What worries me is that he is refusing to apologise.
He needs to apologise to her and to both of you (the parents). That would be my condition to allow him to stay for now.
He was being incredibly selfish. At no time with my brother or sister did we refuse to grant access to the bathroom for anything, particularly if meant missing a bus.