DS21 threatened DD18

[Safarigiraffe]

Today when me/husband were at work DS was in the bathroom & DD had just got ready to leave to go to college. DD knocked on bathroom door & asked my son to hurry up as she was on a tight schedule to get the bus to leave, DS said to her no you have to wait and DD became agitated and started shouting at him to hurry up.
DS then came out the bathroom shoving daughter back in the stomach hard shouting/swearing & intimidating her so DD at this point was very visibly upset & shaking as it wasn’t like my son to react on this way and went to the bathroom to which DS then pushed the door open again shouting/swearing in her face.
DD was at college crying on/off all day, now we have spoken to DD & to DD saying this must never happen again, DS is refusing to apologise & DD never wants to speak to him ever again saying she now feels uncomfortable to be in the house with him however we both work and can’t take time off. (DD is at college DS at Uni)
Can anyone advise of the best way forward here
Many thanks to everyone

If he refuses to apologise then he needs to leave.

If it were my son I would let him stay on the condition that he gave a genuine apology, recognised that would he did was incredibly wrong and was fully aware that if he did anything like that again he would be out and you would be making a police report (I would also keep a written record of what happened and pictures if your daughter has any injuries to back up a future report).

I would make it very clear that these steps are for his benefit as well as the rest of his family as he cannot continue with this behaviour if he wishes to have a good life. I would also make attending an anger management course a condition of staying.

Reassure your daughter that you are putting steps in place to ensure he will not do this again. For a period of time perhaps your son could be out of the house when neither you nor DH are there (he can study in the library, then get a job once term ends).

Yes, 21 is an adult but our brains are still not fully formed until our mid twenties. I think he still needs some guidance about how to behave as an adult. I would worry that kicking him out could alienate him to the point that his behaviour escalates and he feels justified in his anger. At this age I think it is fixable.

Can't believe some of the responses downplaying your DS's aggression! This situation is so familiar to me. My life was made a living hell from the age of 11 until I escaped at 18 because of my bullying, aggressive older brother. I felt so uncomfortable and my parents did nothing. They still don't acknowledge that he did anything wrong and it has severely affected our relationship as a result. Just something to think about. Don't let your DD suffer from the same awful treatment, I guarantee you that it will affect her badly in the long run!

@MerryMarigold If he did the exact same thing to someone he was not related to, they would probably call the police and he would likely be arrested.

So yes, it is serious.

I completely agree @Bootothegoose - if my adult son did that to me, let alone my daughter, then there's no way I'd have him living him in my house. As an adult, it's not a given right that you can stay with your parents. He needs to show some respect, grow the fuck up and if he can't do that, go and learn to stand on his own two feet. Tolerating this kind of behaviour just says it's okay. I feel sorry for any future partners in his life.

"This morning, I really needed something from the bathroom, but DH was in there and refusing to let me get it. I was going to be late for work, so I got a bit agitated and shouted at him to hurry up. He then came out of the bathroom, shouting and swearing at me and shoved me hard in the stomach. Then, when I went into the bathroom, he pushed the door open and continued to shout and swear in my face. It was so distressing. I cried on and off all day in work. I don't feel comfortable at home now. He won't discuss it. Any time I bring it up he just dismisses me and says it's sorted. He didn't apologise. What do I do?"

MN: You shouldn't have shouted at him. You're a drama queen. You verbally abused him first. You both need to grow up.

🙄

If OP's husband had done this to her, would you be saying this?

Perfection.

Anyone excusing this behaviour and saying ‘it’s a sibling spat’ really needs to reassess the way they parent and the level of behaviour they allow their sons to display towards their sisters.

Absolutely this.

Scary how many people are willing to excuse and minimise male violence.

It would have been the norm in our house, too. But the moment someone becomes upset by it, it moves from 'fighting siblings' to physical abuse.

My brother had uncharacteristic outbursts like this as coke left his system.

@wellhelloitsme yes if you can't respect each others space and boundaries I would be pissed if I was getting ready for work and my husband was banging and shouting at me to hurry up because he was unorganised and forgot something, I would also probably shove past him and shout at him if he then blocked the doorway, but then again I don't shout at my husband because he wouldn't bang on the door and shout at me to hurry up he would wait till I was finished like a normal adult

My DC can get very wound up with each other. My DD (18) takes hours in the toilet and her siblings get very upset when she doesnt move. My DD also would behave like your DD banging doors when her brothers are using bathroom or toilet and expect them to simply stop what they are doing and let her in. She is very selfish and doesnt care when they do the same to her. I would be interested if your DD is like this which is why your older DS got angry with her.
However a physical response isnt acceptable and he needs to be spoken to about responding in a violent way.

Sounds like you need to have a family meeting to set some boundaries between them both

My brother threatened to kill me around the same age as your son. I told him if he ever did it again I would call the police. My Mum guilted me about "ruining his life". My brother is still an entitled fucker at 40, who is abusive and shitty and gets away with whatever behaviour he likes. I still get away with nothing. Strangely, I have limited contact with my family.

And if he did it to you? He's statistically likely to be bigger, stronger and more physically intimidating if he wanted to be. That's the comparable situation to OP's DD and DS.

Would you excuse him shoving you in the stomach and hurting you? Then following you into the bathroom to continue shouting at you and intimidating you? It would be your fault for rushing him, is that right?

My son was aggressive to my and the kids and some of his behaviour was intolerable. I told him to continue living here he had to behave normally. He ended up moving out after he flipped and it has been fine since. He moved to his dad's round the corner.

I wouldn't have done my job if I had accepted that behaviour. I didn't kick him out, I told him the rules to live under my roof. I think they revert back to toddlers and dont realise how threatening their man bodies are.

Is he on drugs? Being at uni it’s a big possibility, especially if he wasn’t normally like that.

Kids fight. Yes, I know they're legally adults but they're still exceptionally immature at that age. This is not a violent man, this is a young person being wound up by his sister. He needs to apologise and then everyone needs to move on.

I think she is allowed to cry after a violent assault.

To be crying all day after a shove from your brother seems quite excessive. Maybe because it's so out of character?

But it’s not sorted is it that’s very dismissive of him. That attitude would anger me even more.

Well that sounds like a healthy relationship

@wellhelloitsme see the difference is I would never bang on the bathroom door and shout at me husband to hurry up when his is in there, its all about respecting boundaries and neither of them have what the op needs to do is sit both her adult children down and explain neither on their behaviours are acceptable and he needs to apologise to the dd for shoving her and shouting and she need to apologise for shouting.

So what you're saying is that it wouldn't be acceptable for your DH to shove you because you wouldn't shout at him? But it's acceptable for OP's DS to have done it to her DD because she shouted? So basically... she deserved it?

You don't think that shouting vs shoving and hurting someone is completely different? That one is pretty normal teenage behaviour and the other is a lack of impulse control and a risk? Exacerbated by the fact he hasn't apologised and won't discuss it?

Really shocked there are women on here essentially saying well she asked for it / have as good as she got / six of one half a dozen of the other etc.

@wellhelloitsme you completely twisted what I said I said they both need to apologise that is not saying what he did was right or what she did was right I was saying the op needs to get them both to admit the faults that caused this to happen, also my dh would never shove me because we are both adults and understand boundaries and respect each other,

It's ridiculous he's still acting like that at that age, but peole saying this is no different to an adult stranger assaulting your dd are going a bit overboard. I'm guessing they were like this growing up too.

I'd say obviously he should move out but you say he's trying already so not sure what other advice to give, other than telling him physical retalition is completely unacceptable. How would you even punish him at this point?

Guessing 'they' were like what?