DS21 threatened DD18

[Safarigiraffe]

Today when me/husband were at work DS was in the bathroom & DD had just got ready to leave to go to college. DD knocked on bathroom door & asked my son to hurry up as she was on a tight schedule to get the bus to leave, DS said to her no you have to wait and DD became agitated and started shouting at him to hurry up.
DS then came out the bathroom shoving daughter back in the stomach hard shouting/swearing & intimidating her so DD at this point was very visibly upset & shaking as it wasn’t like my son to react on this way and went to the bathroom to which DS then pushed the door open again shouting/swearing in her face.
DD was at college crying on/off all day, now we have spoken to DD & to DD saying this must never happen again, DS is refusing to apologise & DD never wants to speak to him ever again saying she now feels uncomfortable to be in the house with him however we both work and can’t take time off. (DD is at college DS at Uni)
Can anyone advise of the best way forward here
Many thanks to everyone

And no one is 'traumatised' by it

Yes they are:

DD was at college crying on/off all day, now we have spoken to DD & to DD saying this must never happen again, DS is refusing to apologise & DD never wants to speak to him ever again saying she now feels uncomfortable to be in the house with him

It's people like you, who cause women not to be believed. Because you literally don't believe this girl is traumatised by being shoved, hurt, yelled at and intimidated (while he followed her around when she tried to remove herself from the situation) by someone she thought she could trust. Of course she's traumatised ffs.

@Marvellousmadness He is not a 'kid'. He is a man who assaulted a woman.

He's not a kid ffs.

Kick him out.

Also i'd be interested in having a police officer talk to him.

Oh and @Marvellousmadness he's 21. Not a 'kid'.

What would people be advising if it was a DH? Similar.

Report him and kick him out.

Totally agree and am flabbergasted that so many people (not you) are minimising it.

It's so interesting that people are unable to see that simple, indisputable fact. We are talking about an adult man who used violence towards his sister. That is what the OP describes, but some posters are eager to deny the reality and present it as a harmless sibling spat.

My dear friend was nearly killed by her ex-husband shoving her to the ground and then trying to strangle her. Her ex-husband's mum still maintains that he wasn't actually being violent or abusive; that he just lost his temper as everyone does sometimes; that it's entirely normal for husbands and wives to "argue"; and that it takes two to tango so the wife was probably at fault for winding him up in the first place.

I guess some people start making excuses for their sons at an early age and they simply never stop. And then we wonder why male violence continues to be such a problem in our society.🙄

Some people will disagree, but I think if my brother who I'd known and loved all my life behaved like that I would be more shocked and upset than if it were a DH/DP.

What does this "sorted" actually mean? He hasn't apologised and it clearly isn't "sorted" for your daughter, OP.

See, i mean, if it was my son, yes, part of me would be wanting to think ''ooooooh you kids! You're as bad as each other! She was shouting, you shoved her and screamed in her face and kept pushing the door open and carrying on ...'' (would i? no - but i'm trying hard to put myself in the mother's shoes) ...

But still a little part of me would think fuck - he needs to be pulled up big time here just in case he thinks he can do this to other women. OR to another man. He could get a knife pulled on him for being the one to escalate shouting to physical violence.

For his sake alone she should be doing more than asking for an apology. As if he's 10.

Urgh. The problem with adult men has a massive amount to do with their parenting.

I'm so fed up of even 'naughtiness' and unkindness from little boys being tolerated, whilst girls are brought up to accept and enable this.

There are many things at play here.

To all the pps saying dd shouldn't have shouted at him to hurry up as it was making her late for work.

1. She works, he doesn't. Therefore she takes priority. A normal person knows roughly what time a family person needs to leave the house for work.
2. If ds is like any adult male then he won't be in there minutes. It will be fucking 30 minutes minimum.

OP - I can understand why you are trying to minimise it, but the main things I am taking from your post is

1. His refusal to apologise. That is a huge red flag. If he can't apologise then he is out. A proper apology from the heart. He needs to understand that his behaviour is worthy of police attention even if you don't tell them.

1. Then his refusal to discuss it so things can be put in place for prevention. If drugs then a gp referral for drug withdrawals etc. If unable to cope then gp referral for counselling and antidepressants. Until you know why nothing can be put in place.

1. His absolute shut down as saying its sorted when it so obviously isn't is insulting to you all. Its his house and you, dh and dd are nothing and worthless He is dismissing you- that is what he is saying.

Those three need addressing as priority. If he can't or won't then he is out.

For those who think it's alright because it's between siblings and therefore physical assault is "normal", is there an age at which you think it would no longer be considered "normal" sibling behaviour?

The fact that they're both adults clearly doesn't seem to impact on people's assessment of the situation, so I'm curious to know whether people think it would be OK for older adult siblings to behave in this way towards each other. If he was 43 and she was 40, for example? Would that still be considered "normal" sibling behaviour? What about if he was 78 and she was 75? Still normal?

Essentially, I guess I'm asking whether there is a cut-off age before which it's considered normal and OK for an adult man to assault his younger sister (and if so, what people think that cut-off age is) or whether people think that a man retains that right throughout his life because it is just a built-in part of the sibling relationship that will never change?

No, he has done this before, just you didn't notice / didn't hear about it.

This is not a violent man, this is a young person being wound up by his sister.

Really? Wound up?
She needed to get something from the bathroom so she could catch a bus, or be late.
He wound her up.
What we usually do at home is for the person inside to grab whatever it is and hand it out, if they don´t want to open the door. Because we respect each other.

He didn´t respect her at all.

Her shouting is not surprising, and is hardly violent. Unless she insulted him or shouted on his face.

His reaction, then, was totally out of proportion.

But this wasn't a "violent assault".

You are right, it wasn´t a "violent assault", it was a violent assault. No "".

I'm sure the "very very out of character" defence is really comforting to your DD.

If DD had a b/f, & he terrorised her like this in your home - would you allow the b/f to cross your threshold ever again?

You have just told her she is not safe in her own home because her parents won't protect her, & are allowing a man who shoved & intimidated her to stay in the family home - without so much as an apology.

& you've just taught your son that he can push women around with no consequences, & that when another woman - even one who has authority over him (hint: YOU) - asks for an apology, he can simply choose to stonewall & ignore her.

Well done.

I will not tolerate this from my DS

But you are tolerating it. You or your DH have done nothing, given no consequences.

I would be urging your dd to call the police, he wont touch her again.

I can’t believe the amount of women here who need such little lapses in their son’s behaviour to immediately diagnose them as violent abusive bullies who need to be kicked out as nobody is safe around them etc etc

Adding to and encouraging the drama by thinking it’s a reasonable reaction to be crying ALL day, after a fight puts your 2 children even more firmly into the box of “victim” and “perpetrator”

DD was shouting at DS to hurry up and get out of the bathroom etc. Had there been no violence, but the DS had been the one shouting for DD to hurry up and get out etc, people would still be up in arms saying he was verbally abusive and you should kick him out/ DD was a victim because she wasn’t safe using the bathroom without being shouted at etc.

They both need to be sat down and spoken to about how you will all live together. Allowing your DD to paint her brother as such a violent abuser that she can’t be in the house with him is quite
frankly ridiculous.

@Derbee

DD was shouting at DS to hurry up and get out of the bathroom etc. Had there been no violence, but the DS had been the one shouting for DD to hurry up and get out etc, people would still be up in arms saying he was verbally abusive and you should kick him out/ DD was a victim because she wasn’t safe using the bathroom without being shouted at etc.

Bullshit.

If OP's husband had behaved that way towards her, would you call this a "little lapse" in behaviour? Would you say she shouldn't cry about it for one day? Would you say he wasn't the 'perpetrator' and she wasn't the 'victim' if he then followed her round shouting at her when she tried to get away? Would you say it was a 'little lapse' if he didn't apologise and refused to discuss it with her? If not, why do you think differently just because it's a brother doing this to their sister rather than a husband to a wife?

It's people like you who facilitate aggressive teens becoming aggressive men. And he's not even a teen, he's 21. More than old enough to not respond to someone shouting at him to 'hurry up' with a shove, then follow them around shouting at them when they try to remove themselves from the situation.

I can’t believe the amount of women here who need such little lapses in their son’s behaviour to immediately diagnose them as violent abusive bullies who need to be kicked out as nobody is safe around them etc etc

Like I said above, my friend's ex mother-in-law still believes that it was just a "little lapse" in her son's behaviour when he tried to strangle his wife. Where do you draw the line?

It would not be considered a 'little lapse' if a 21 year old man had flown off the handle in this way and done the same thing to his wife, his daughter or his mother, would it? Why is it more acceptable to do it to his sister?

Derbee - Had there been no violence, but the DS had been the one shouting for DD to hurry up and get out etc, people would still be up in arms saying he was verbally abusive and you should kick him out

What utter rubbish.

How old does the son have to get to before it's not a ''little laps'' anymore? Genuine q. 22 - just one more year. 25? 28?

Also - who else should be expected to accept his little lapses at the moment?

A girlfriend? His boss or a tutor maybe?

encouraging the drama by thinking it’s a reasonable reaction to be crying ALL day, after a fight puts your 2 children even more firmly into the box of “victim” and “perpetrator”

He not a child.
You can't be more firmly in a victim or perpetrator ''box''. He is the perpetrator and she is the victim.

If a 21 year old man pushed you in the stomach and screamed in your face i take it you'd take care not to 'increase the drama' with your feelings ?

@wellhelloitsme Cheers, you took several words out of my mouth with that excellent post.

For the PP who are handmaidening & setting out their Straw Man arguments - this isn't just about one small "out of character" spat.

It's about a young man losing his rag, scaring his sister, refusing to apologise for it, & having NOT ONE SINGLE CONSEQUENCE imposed on him by his parents.

This is how entitled young men become entitled partners, who act just as they please without reference to anybody else's feelings, or any personal accountability for their own.

All the 'little laps'' type posters -

What would you actually do in the OPs situation? We've heard lots of condemnation for the idea of kicking the man out or calling the police.

Apart from that it's sitting them BOTH down and ''sorting it out''.

Well he wont apologise. He wont talk to OP about it at all.

So ..... what now?
He's 21. We're not going to suggest losing screen time i hope.