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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Support thread for those hosting refugees and advice for those thinking about it

1000 replies

Honeysuckle9 · 19/05/2022 13:31

As per the previous thread this is a thread so we can offer support to each other and also outline the things we should be thinking about before making this leap

OP posts:
Tulipomania · 17/08/2022 09:18

It’s also weird than mine have not engaged with the local Ukrainian refugee community hear at all (I know many more families due to my volunteering) maybe it’s because they don’t have children and have each other? I also suspect they see themselves as socially and economically superior and have no need to make connections whilst here. Maybe these are all clues that they are not staying long term?

This has been my experience too, although my family includes 2 kids. It has taken them 3 months to start socialising with other Ukrainians staying with my nearly next door neighbour, even though we introduced them in the first week. And now they are returning ...

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 09:21

Tulipomania · 17/08/2022 09:18

It’s also weird than mine have not engaged with the local Ukrainian refugee community hear at all (I know many more families due to my volunteering) maybe it’s because they don’t have children and have each other? I also suspect they see themselves as socially and economically superior and have no need to make connections whilst here. Maybe these are all clues that they are not staying long term?

This has been my experience too, although my family includes 2 kids. It has taken them 3 months to start socialising with other Ukrainians staying with my nearly next door neighbour, even though we introduced them in the first week. And now they are returning ...

Half of mumsnet won’t open the door to a stranger. Some people don’t socialise much. I don’t

Tulipomania · 17/08/2022 09:23

MumEeee she is not shy! She is a very intelligent woman and has been extremely strategic about who she chooses to engage with. Only people who can be of use to her. And I do think she's a bit of an intellectual snob ...

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 09:27

Maybe she is. I guess there are people here the same, wouldn’t seek out non middle class groups.

To be fair I haven’t wanted to go to the community centres that have been opened and be overwhelmed. As I teach I was approached by the council to work as a translator for their evening information evenings. I am probably a bad person as I resented that others I knew, non Ukrainian speakers, were offered overtime for things like childcare or sharing admissions information but I was expected to come for free as a duty. Maybe I’m just a bad person, but I did my evening tutoring work as usual and took the pay I needed.

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 09:36

(I helped other routes, I’ve had plenty of emails and calls to occupy ten people. Just an example)

forinborin · 17/08/2022 09:57

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 09:06

For me the analogy would read

‘imagine you moved from Cardiff to Spain as a teen. You finished schooling there. There was no church or British community centre in easy travel so you went to local groups. You didn’t travel to Britain to keep your passport as you could travel on a Spanish one and it was safer for various reasons anyway. After a while you spoke in your sleep in Spanish and raised Spanish speaking children. Not many people in your area spoke English and Spanish became a more dominant language, no other family were close to you to talk to the children either so you let them speak Spanish after a while. It was a lovely international community and this was fairly normal.

Over 20 years later there was an influx of people from Birmingham and London. They were young, on social media and confident. Not looking for middle aged advice particularly ‘

Well, yes, there's that as well. Giving advice is all very well, but whether it will be listened too is another question. It is not like long resident British Ukrainians have some unusual authority amongst the newcomers. In my experience it is even somewhat the opposite, they are seen as someone who had it super-easy, and the advice is treated a bit like that avocado-toast advice from the boomer generation. And there's a grain of truth in that.

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 10:17

forinborin · 17/08/2022 09:57

Well, yes, there's that as well. Giving advice is all very well, but whether it will be listened too is another question. It is not like long resident British Ukrainians have some unusual authority amongst the newcomers. In my experience it is even somewhat the opposite, they are seen as someone who had it super-easy, and the advice is treated a bit like that avocado-toast advice from the boomer generation. And there's a grain of truth in that.

Well I did. Fairly well off western village, travelling easily before adulthood. No hostile environment or much more than bemusement as to ‘where?’.

Compared to someone from a deprived eastern industrial city?

It’s like a Florida retiree coming to lecture people in the Detroit rust belt at best. It’s a world away.

I don’t think some people understand the scale of Ukraine or the diversity. The length of the current front is significantly longer than the distance from London to Lviv! Or the changes in the country in 20-30 years. I don’t recognise it in many ways, I can’t understand even the job market. My advice is bad if I apply it there.

forinborin · 17/08/2022 10:41

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 10:17

Well I did. Fairly well off western village, travelling easily before adulthood. No hostile environment or much more than bemusement as to ‘where?’.

Compared to someone from a deprived eastern industrial city?

It’s like a Florida retiree coming to lecture people in the Detroit rust belt at best. It’s a world away.

I don’t think some people understand the scale of Ukraine or the diversity. The length of the current front is significantly longer than the distance from London to Lviv! Or the changes in the country in 20-30 years. I don’t recognise it in many ways, I can’t understand even the job market. My advice is bad if I apply it there.

Well, I am the opposite, from a "fairly deprived eastern city" (well, centre-south-east). Many people from the west won't even engage now when they hear Ukrainian spoken with an eastern accent. You might have noticed that there has been a lot of blame in the community placed on people from the east for somehow causing this war by simply existing, or speaking Russian.

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 10:49

forinborin · 17/08/2022 10:41

Well, I am the opposite, from a "fairly deprived eastern city" (well, centre-south-east). Many people from the west won't even engage now when they hear Ukrainian spoken with an eastern accent. You might have noticed that there has been a lot of blame in the community placed on people from the east for somehow causing this war by simply existing, or speaking Russian.

Yes. There was initially here in one group a refusal to translate into Russian- only Ukrainian. The existing community here, though small, is western largely. I certainly saw that. In the market near my family there has been tension for years. I even have a cousin in their late twenties who doesn’t speak Russian at all. It may be part of the above behaviour of the ‘intellectual’ woman I wonder?

Ive also been seen as ‘village’ by some with the language mixed in with local words. Especially with the time gap it sounds a bit funny to some.

Our Russian friends have equal divisions, hearing how some poor kids are spoken of is awful. In many ways it’s not a simply cohesive community as imagined and it’s a vast area and range of experiences. I’m embarrassing by some of the Nationalism since the Orange Revolution. Though I can’t speak for ‘the community’ as I’m not really part of it. These are my own thoughts.

forinborin · 17/08/2022 12:22

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 10:49

Yes. There was initially here in one group a refusal to translate into Russian- only Ukrainian. The existing community here, though small, is western largely. I certainly saw that. In the market near my family there has been tension for years. I even have a cousin in their late twenties who doesn’t speak Russian at all. It may be part of the above behaviour of the ‘intellectual’ woman I wonder?

Ive also been seen as ‘village’ by some with the language mixed in with local words. Especially with the time gap it sounds a bit funny to some.

Our Russian friends have equal divisions, hearing how some poor kids are spoken of is awful. In many ways it’s not a simply cohesive community as imagined and it’s a vast area and range of experiences. I’m embarrassing by some of the Nationalism since the Orange Revolution. Though I can’t speak for ‘the community’ as I’m not really part of it. These are my own thoughts.

But even assuming I had social tools to shame a newly arrived refugee into employment, how is it supposed to work from a practical perspective? A real example, a young mum with two pre-schoolers, from a recently occupied area, has nearly zero English, her husband had stayed back in a safer city in Ukraine, where he struggles to feed even himself - he grabs any odd job that he can find, even fixing someone's fence for £5/day equivalent, but it is not like the area is booming with employment opportunities, and the army doesn't accept new recruits with no previous experience at the moment. They are not some lazy shits with no work ethic who are used to handouts, they had quite a successful and growing small business back home, but as many small business owners in absolutely any country in the world, were quite low on disposable cash, and any surpluses were reinvested in the business rather than drawn. As a responsible community member, what am I supposed to nudge her into? Tell me, I'll do it. She won't be able to meet even half of her potential childcare bill from her potential earnings, never mind pay rent or buy food, without relying on welfare. And yes, she has no desire to settle here, wants to go back as soon as some solution, no matter how temporary, is found by her husband. Now, for example, they are waiting with baited breath if the law passes that would allow Ukrainian men to leave the country - her husband seemed to have found an opportunity in Central Europe that comes with some sort of basic accommodation (farm work), but cannot leave yet.

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 13:45

forinborin · 17/08/2022 12:22

But even assuming I had social tools to shame a newly arrived refugee into employment, how is it supposed to work from a practical perspective? A real example, a young mum with two pre-schoolers, from a recently occupied area, has nearly zero English, her husband had stayed back in a safer city in Ukraine, where he struggles to feed even himself - he grabs any odd job that he can find, even fixing someone's fence for £5/day equivalent, but it is not like the area is booming with employment opportunities, and the army doesn't accept new recruits with no previous experience at the moment. They are not some lazy shits with no work ethic who are used to handouts, they had quite a successful and growing small business back home, but as many small business owners in absolutely any country in the world, were quite low on disposable cash, and any surpluses were reinvested in the business rather than drawn. As a responsible community member, what am I supposed to nudge her into? Tell me, I'll do it. She won't be able to meet even half of her potential childcare bill from her potential earnings, never mind pay rent or buy food, without relying on welfare. And yes, she has no desire to settle here, wants to go back as soon as some solution, no matter how temporary, is found by her husband. Now, for example, they are waiting with baited breath if the law passes that would allow Ukrainian men to leave the country - her husband seemed to have found an opportunity in Central Europe that comes with some sort of basic accommodation (farm work), but cannot leave yet.

I had a friend, who’s black British, gently say to me I was getting reactive to comments generalising behaviour of Ukrainians or people expecting to dictate my behaviour as I had no experience of prejudice. I took her point on board. In a small community I was ever generalised as a type of person, I visually blended in and I think most people didn’t even know there was a country called Ukraine. Many of my other friends are very used to similar expectations, that black women should find time to run community groups to help youth or Albanians should be aware their car choices so as not to look like ‘gangsters’ etc. She said step back, it’s not most people and how they think- but it’s a few that can be very assertively put to you. She said find your tribe, don’t take online conversations to seriously… and be aware yourself.

I think it’s important to not get upset, or feel you need to engage with this. Most people are really kind. They aren’t expecting it, understand the difficulties many are facing. They are just humans who want to vent over bedding or cookware. A few are genuinely being treated really badly by those they’ve hosted and in a dark place.

Personally I’m not going to derail the thread by replying to this thread of conversation again, even if my words and intent are twisted. However I’m happy to advise hosts in the London area where house shares are being advertised for Ukrainians if that’s useful. I can’t think of much else I can do. I can’t really advise this in very different areas as I don’t know why is happening there.

Thereisnolight · 17/08/2022 18:35

My advice to future hosts would be to try to meet your guests a few times if at all possible (casually, don’t let them know you’re thinking of hosting) before you make an offer. I met my guests when they were staying with other Ukrainians in a large centre. They’re from a deprived Eastern city and on paper I mightn’t have chosen them, I might have gone for the family who seemed more like me on paper but who in real life turned out to seem kind of strange (but might be a good match for someone different).

Letsgoforaskip · 17/08/2022 19:04

@MumEeeee I just want to thank you again for sharing your insights. I have found all your posts very interesting and measured.

Fireyflies · 17/08/2022 20:11

I'd also echo the thanks to Ukrainians on this thread. I find it really insightful at times to have their perspective on cultural differences.

Sellie555 · 17/08/2022 20:59

forinborin · 17/08/2022 10:41

Well, I am the opposite, from a "fairly deprived eastern city" (well, centre-south-east). Many people from the west won't even engage now when they hear Ukrainian spoken with an eastern accent. You might have noticed that there has been a lot of blame in the community placed on people from the east for somehow causing this war by simply existing, or speaking Russian.

@forinborin oh yes that’s true, my guests are quite anti eastern Ukrainians. They did participate in a couple of local meet ups here but the locals here are predominantly from Kharkiv, so they didn’t go again

they also refuse to speak Russian to anyone. They think it’s unpatriotic to be ukrainiAn and Be in the U.K. and continue to speak Russian. At the hotel where the girl Is a receptionist, one of the guests (Russian speaking but not Russian by birth)said in Russian to her ‘ah you’re from ukraine! Do you speak Russian?’ And my girl said ‘no’ (even tho she’s fluent)

forinborin · 17/08/2022 21:17

Sellie555 · 17/08/2022 20:59

@forinborin oh yes that’s true, my guests are quite anti eastern Ukrainians. They did participate in a couple of local meet ups here but the locals here are predominantly from Kharkiv, so they didn’t go again

they also refuse to speak Russian to anyone. They think it’s unpatriotic to be ukrainiAn and Be in the U.K. and continue to speak Russian. At the hotel where the girl Is a receptionist, one of the guests (Russian speaking but not Russian by birth)said in Russian to her ‘ah you’re from ukraine! Do you speak Russian?’ And my girl said ‘no’ (even tho she’s fluent)

This attitude completely baffles me as this is precisely the message putin tries to sell to everyone. That he has started the war to liberate Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine (the absolute majority of whom are pro-Ukraine - many have actually lost their homes in 2014 as a result of their position).

Now western Ukrainians: "hey guys, this war is because of you, as you speak Russian". "How do you know?" - "Putin said so himself."

Mind blown.

forinborin · 17/08/2022 21:33

Thereisnolight · 17/08/2022 18:35

My advice to future hosts would be to try to meet your guests a few times if at all possible (casually, don’t let them know you’re thinking of hosting) before you make an offer. I met my guests when they were staying with other Ukrainians in a large centre. They’re from a deprived Eastern city and on paper I mightn’t have chosen them, I might have gone for the family who seemed more like me on paper but who in real life turned out to seem kind of strange (but might be a good match for someone different).

Life quality in the East / South East, as a rule, has been much higher recently than in the west of the country (as opposed to the 90s, when it was the other way round). I used a "deprived eastern city" mostly in jest above. Mariupol was a thriving industrial port city with the highest average salary in Ukraine (yes, higher than in the capital Kyiv), a vibrant cultural scene, a couple of international startup tech projects and an ever-growing number of private schools. Hardly an abandoned mining town.

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 21:37

forinborin · 17/08/2022 21:17

This attitude completely baffles me as this is precisely the message putin tries to sell to everyone. That he has started the war to liberate Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine (the absolute majority of whom are pro-Ukraine - many have actually lost their homes in 2014 as a result of their position).

Now western Ukrainians: "hey guys, this war is because of you, as you speak Russian". "How do you know?" - "Putin said so himself."

Mind blown.

@forinborin I’m sorry. Our families are spread a bit and whilst none close to me has this view- I won’t pretend it doesn’t happen. I found the fact that English is to apparently become a state language also a bit borderline ridiculous.

I do think the ultimate goal is to split Ukraine at the Dnieper and the propaganda is out to fuel this end- and people swallow it whole with noodles on their ears. They are terrified of nationalists and being split apart in the Russian world, including the republics such as Tatarstan etc breaking out. Hence the actions. There’s also anti west graffiti in Lviv purportedly from the East, we’ll never know how controlled it is.

Thank you to the reassurance from the two posters too- appreciated.

Sellie555 · 17/08/2022 21:37

forinborin · 17/08/2022 21:17

This attitude completely baffles me as this is precisely the message putin tries to sell to everyone. That he has started the war to liberate Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine (the absolute majority of whom are pro-Ukraine - many have actually lost their homes in 2014 as a result of their position).

Now western Ukrainians: "hey guys, this war is because of you, as you speak Russian". "How do you know?" - "Putin said so himself."

Mind blown.

@forinborin when you have heard missiles drop next to your apartment, have had to hide for hours every day In the non bomb proof basement, you’ve had to leave your father/husband behind, I think it’s probably quite fair enough not to want to hear or speak the Russian language from a Ukrainian or any other Russian speaker.
the 13 yr old girl actually wet herself scared when we went to a meet and she heard Russian being spoken

WTF475878237NC · 17/08/2022 21:48

Our guests are both Russian and Ukrainian speaking and are deeply saddened to know that people are fearful of them. They see Ukraine as a country being divided from the outside, but it seems more complex and longstanding.

Sellie555 · 17/08/2022 21:52

WTF475878237NC · 17/08/2022 21:48

Our guests are both Russian and Ukrainian speaking and are deeply saddened to know that people are fearful of them. They see Ukraine as a country being divided from the outside, but it seems more complex and longstanding.

@WTF475878237NC oh yes most Ukrainians speak both languages fluently as a general rule

however, the east tends to speak Russian first and the west tends to speak ukrainian first. But Ukrainian is the official first language within the country

MumEeeee · 17/08/2022 22:16

forinborin · 17/08/2022 21:33

Life quality in the East / South East, as a rule, has been much higher recently than in the west of the country (as opposed to the 90s, when it was the other way round). I used a "deprived eastern city" mostly in jest above. Mariupol was a thriving industrial port city with the highest average salary in Ukraine (yes, higher than in the capital Kyiv), a vibrant cultural scene, a couple of international startup tech projects and an ever-growing number of private schools. Hardly an abandoned mining town.

My mum and aunt and their friends truly deeply believe statues have been seen rising from the Black Sea draped in flowers, visions of Mary have appeared before the heroes, angels have guided men to safety. They spend a lot of time sending these forwarded stories on WhatsApp. I think that may summarise the rural western area I know for you. And what getting through on discussions is like? My Nan never left the surrounding area to the village and next town, I’m not sure she even saw Lviv.
Being light hearted (hope that is ok in tone), but I can’t relate really. My mental image is of large comfortable houses with no infrastructure at all, even tarmac roads other than the main road, and wells outside for water.

forinborin · 17/08/2022 22:18

Sellie555 · 17/08/2022 21:37

@forinborin when you have heard missiles drop next to your apartment, have had to hide for hours every day In the non bomb proof basement, you’ve had to leave your father/husband behind, I think it’s probably quite fair enough not to want to hear or speak the Russian language from a Ukrainian or any other Russian speaker.
the 13 yr old girl actually wet herself scared when we went to a meet and she heard Russian being spoken

What city are they from? Most people who spent days and weeks in basements and under bombs so far are Russian speaking themselves. As a first language I mean, the majority would be bilingual, but with a much stronger fluency in one. A 13 year old is almost guaranteed to hear a lot of Russian on the daily basis from her friends, or on social media, or news - it is practically impossible not to.

Well, unless they are from a very remote village in the East (similarly to some villages in Scotland or Ireland where only Gaelic is spoken) and are religiously against technology. And it is also true that many have made a conscious choice to switch more to Ukrainian recently.

forinborin · 17/08/2022 22:19

West not East in the post above obv

Sellie555 · 17/08/2022 22:28

forinborin · 17/08/2022 22:18

What city are they from? Most people who spent days and weeks in basements and under bombs so far are Russian speaking themselves. As a first language I mean, the majority would be bilingual, but with a much stronger fluency in one. A 13 year old is almost guaranteed to hear a lot of Russian on the daily basis from her friends, or on social media, or news - it is practically impossible not to.

Well, unless they are from a very remote village in the East (similarly to some villages in Scotland or Ireland where only Gaelic is spoken) and are religiously against technology. And it is also true that many have made a conscious choice to switch more to Ukrainian recently.

@forinborin the west, but I assure you the air raid sirens whilst they were there were going off everyday and in the middle of the night and they had to go to the basement for many hours at a time.

fhey also show me the air raid warning text messages they still show on their phones severel times a week. So the people in the west are still having to retreat to safety frequently. Ok there are not Russian boots on the ground there but there has still been missiles landing there

regardless whether the 13 yr old used to hear Russian a lot around her socially (altho her and I would dispute that cos the west predominantly and overwhelmingly speak ukrainian - they actually are more likely to hear Polish as many there are also fluent in polish), she is traumatised by hearing Russian now

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