Support thread for those hosting refugees and advice for those thinking about it

[Honeysuckle9]

As per the previous thread this is a thread so we can offer support to each other and also outline the things we should be thinking about before making this leap

I think the baked bean borscht was a misunderstanding I’d guess. It’s common to use beans. Maybe not knowing what baked beans are she thought they were tinned beans? Broad beans or something she was familiar with?

My mother in law once had tooth pain when she visited. So she bought tablets with a picture of teeth on the packet and took one. It was for cleaning dentures…

Pot plant isn't going anywhere. You can't just take plants into and out of the EU anymore.

And yes, returning to your home country whilst on a refugee visa invalidates your status as a refugee... Much legal advice online highly discouraging it.

If she goes she can't guarantee she will be allowed to return.

So a question for those who are more knowledgeable than me!

for those who have seen some of my posts on this thread, you will know that my guests are hard working and lovely decent human beings.

but I’m struggling with the news that the mother wants to take a trip with the 13 yr old daughter back to western ukraine to see husband/father . Totally and utterly understand how desperate they are to see their loved ones.

however
a) are they even allowed to travel in/out of ukraine?
b) surely it’s a safeguarding issue for the child? I know the school safeguarding policy stated that a set of processes must take place by the school if they know a pupil Is being taken to a conflict zone

I completely understand their desire to see their loved ones. It’s achingly heartbreaking to know how much they miss them. I’m just not sure if I could be supportive of the child going… And I don’t know the consequences if they went I.e the child has a free place at a private school here and I would think the school may say this goes against their safeguarding policy and threaten to withdraw her school place

my guests say, In that case, they will do it secretly so the school etc doesn’t know

any thoughts? Please no comment such as ‘they can’t be real refugees if they want to go there for a week’ etc. firstly, they are real refugees and secondly they are real refugees who cry every day that they don’t see their beloved dad/husband/grandparents etc

i simply want to understand if there are any implications for them if they travelled back for a week

I am certainly not advocating it- but I presume people have travelled through Poland. They don’t need a visa/ stamp to enter Ukraine on a Ukrainian passport. They have maybe re-entered Poland on a domestic passport (visa free and possible).
Then they do not state they have visited Ukraine?
Risky obviously.
I wouldn’t do it myself, but equally I’d not get involved in the life of a genuine person doing it or offer too much counsel.

I also don’t know as to how it’s treated in terms of it being a ‘refugee’ visa. It’s nearer to a work sponsor visa, where you are sponsor by an employer (but rather a person). Refugee visas can be used to work towards indefinite leave ultimately and have some other rights the Ukraine home one don’t have. Ukraine visas are fixed term sponsor visas, with nothing counted towards indefinite leave in the future being possible. So there isn’t the same end goal to be lost? I’m not sure the travel rights and if they are different. I’d have to research it.

@MumEeeee oh yes they would travel to Poland and then bus to ukraine from there.

at the end of the day I will be supportive of them cos it’s all about the desperation of not seeing their dad/husband but I don’t want them to get into trouble with social services/the school etc for taking the child, in my little pea brain overthinking head I’m thinking about how much the private school has gone out of its way to give her a free place and I’m not sure whether the school may ultimately withdraw the school place if they have particularly strong feelings about it

the risk, in terms of their safety, is theirs alone to take; I won’t get involved in that, that’s their decision to make.

I’m just trying to factually answer your question.
I’m very very emotionally mixed up over it all on many levels for many reasons. I can see both sides and there are obviously abuses mixed in with genuine and nothing is really black or white.
Part of me agrees about the school, part of me sees the incredible privilege that is rarely shared from these places and the confusion of life being upside down. I don’t know.

Absolutely agree with you! I guess the answer really is that it’s all entirely at their own risk in terms of a) their safety b) any potential consequences relating to the school/social services etc

thank you, was good to ‘talk’ it out! ❤️

My family have decided to return next week - the city where they live has been safe recently and they miss husband/father and parents/grandparents too much.

I did not know this would invalidate their visa and assumed that if things got bad they would be bale to come back here again, as the visa is for 3 years. Can someone post a link please with that info?

Also I want to make sure they notify HMRC or whoever it is that they will no longer need child benefit or UC (she was getting it for the kids but not herself). How do I do that?

Do you believe they intend to carry on claiming from abroad?

Their visas won’t be invalidated simply by crossing a boarder, particularly if they do it on their ID rather than a passport. On a refugee visa it’s discouraged simply because it may affect an asylum claim later- it’s hard to prove you are persecuted if you travel back to the place of danger. Ukrainians though are not making asylum claims, they are on sponsored visas. I’d be interested if there is a link.

This is a bit convoluted as there isn't an easy to read government page that explicitly spells this out. Instead there are various websites which point out the legalities by going around the houses. I think when applying for the visa its covered somewhere.

I think this website covers it best.

Once the person is inside the UK or at a port of entry, they must meet the legal definition of a refugee. The Immigration Rules point us to the relevant international treaty which is the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees done at Geneva on 28 July 1951 and the New York Protocol of 31 January 1967 (often just referred to as the “Refugee Convention” or the “Geneva Convention”). A refugee is defined in Article 1A of the Refugee Convention as a person who

owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.

And

the Immigration Rules at paragraph 339A(i) say explicitly that a refugee who voluntarily re-avails themselves of the protection of their country of origin can face revocation of refugee status. The same rule does not exist for humanitarian protection — yet the Home Office appears to apply that same standard when it comes to settlement applications.

freemovement.org.uk/what-is-the-difference-between-refugee-status-and-humanitarian-protection/

So to take refugee status you have to meet certain criteria. The homes for ukraine visa, allows Ukrainians to bypass the asylum seeker process and give them automatic refugee status (and therefore the right to work immediately) but it is categorically a refugee visa not a work visa. As such you have to meet the legal definition of a refugee. That does mean you can't just go back to your home country because you feel like it and then return to the uk and expect to retain your refugee status. Return home does invalidate it because it demonstrates you feel it is safe enough to do.

The time limit is to stop Ukrainians being able to automatically have a path to indefinite leave to remain which refugees have the right to after 5 years. Hence the 3 year limit. The plan is that Ukrainian refugees are only here temporarily. The government have been explicit about this. Some will be able to extend their stay through application for other visas but the majority they want to eventually go home.

The three year cut off is going to become a political hot potato at some point im sure. What happens to all these Ukrainians who want to stay? Indefinite leave to remain is also a costly visa to apply for. I'd argue that its impossible to get if you are on minimum wage if you are living independently due to the fees involved. So only certain minimum wage jobs are going to be open for visas: think care home staff if an employer is prepared to foot the bill for the work visa. Realistically its going to be a route for professionals only.

The way the government have done the visa is strategic. Its based on the belief the war will not be as long as 3 years and that Ukrainians are here temporarily. Again if that changes there's going to be an issue. Especially if a large percentage of those on Ukraine visas are simply claiming UC. Its going to be a political issue that the right will play to.

It leaves the home office with options to use to forceably remove Ukrainians at a later date if they wish to.

www.gov.uk/claim-benefits-abroad

This link explains responsibilities and obligations. The claimant can continue to claim benefits when abroad on holiday - but they have to inform HMRC and Job Centre Plus that they are travelling temporarily otherwise it is fraud.

I have no idea how it works if you go on holiday / leave the country for the allowed 5 weeks claim the benefits that you are entitled to whilst temporarily abroad and then choose not to return to the UK at the end of the 5 weeks - I suspect that any benefits will stop only once HMRC have been in informed that it’s a permanent rather than temporary move.

To put it another way: there is no such thing as schrodinger's refugee who is simultaneously unable to live safely in their home country and able to travel on holiday or to visit relatives in their home country under the international definition of refugee.

Leaving to return to Ukraine is going to raise eyebrows with the UK border force. Lengthy periods outside the UK are certainly going to raise an eyebrow with the UK border force. At the moment they may well turn a blind eye not wishing to stir up a political storm. But if issues start to appear after six months in terms of benefits and housing amid a cost of living crisis and growing disinterest in the Ukrainian conflict, then a stricter line is almost inevitable for a new tory leader wishing to play to the right. You certainly are not going to be able to guarantee entry to the uk. Being denied entry to a country at the border gets marked on your passport and can be problematic for other future travel.

The idea that sympathy for ukrainian refugees is going to be long lasting is naive at best. Come the winter there will be a massive shift in priorities and patience. Ukrainians need to be aware of this and pull their finger out in terms of integration as it will come back at them if they are just relying on benefits and the generosity of hosts.

Could you please provide a link that it is a refugee visa? It seems to be a presumption.

There is no requirement to prove anything other that citizenship of Ukraine and residency, no requirement to claim asylum or prove persecution. You could live in a safe area and come for economy reasons. You only need a sponsor and you can apply. One could even claim alongside an immediate family member who was resident in Ukraine before 1st Jan 2002 if they were themselves living in a third county. Eg a spouse.

In fact it deliberately seems to deter Ukrainians seeking asylum or being linked to refugee status in anyway. They have deleted it but the website expressed stated that Ukrainians would be denied asylum if they applied as there are many safe areas in Ukraine. The visa is expressly not linked to any right to stay in the UK.

Everything above is based on the presumption of the visa being a refugee visa.

I think the hard line is simply getting tougher on claims and housing, the old hostile environment attitude. Make it difficult to stay here without work, make it too difficult to claim. The visas now are on the clock anyway, they all end in about 2.5 years so there’s no long term issue to tackle.

Also you state Ukrainians have refugee rights. They do not. They cannot claim housing as a refugee, access services or funding for refugees. For example is a council has childcare or English lessons for refugees they cannot access them.. There is an allocated separate amount for those on the Homes scheme. It hasn’t though in many areas actually been given to authorities yet.
They are in the same boat as anyone regarding housing. Those on the family scheme cannot even access the additional school funding pot as it only for the home’s scheme.
The use of the term refugee is not anyway on documents.

@MumEeeee thank you for your excellent and informative posts.
I completely understand the hoarding tendencies and desire to buy things to send back. Every day I am humbled by my guests’ positivity as they keep smiling and chatting while air raid sirens sound over the phone and they haven’t been able to ascertain whether their house is still standing.

I’ll add one thing on ‘integration’

Its really hard on a short term visa. No one will rent to you and deal with the worries of if the person will return abroad with unpaid rent or overstay and get the landlord in trouble renting to ‘illegals’. It’s laughable in most cities they will rent in any other way other than sub lets in busy shared houses. £900 pm for the front room in a 3 bed house in London with 9 other people is what is going on in east London currently. All sharing a toilet and kitchen. Everyone working odd shifts in construction or hospitality waking you.

Sending the kids to school and integrating is scary, knowing they’ll have to switch back to the old life a younger child won’t be so familiar with. Back to a curriculum change, adjusted potentials and a language switch. Losing school friends again.

If you know it’s short term, unlike an asylum claimer, it’s different. Why integrate? It’s easier to try and stay in your world as much as possible to reduce the impact of upheaval. Ukrainians I know are under no illusion that this is a long term plan. Most are working and saving heavily to either buy a new property in Ukraine or repair. My cousin bought a flat in Lviv recently- I’m sure people won’t be able to relate to that. She’s aware the market is soaring in safe areas so she took a gamble. Moving isn’t just to escape bins, for many they are trying to future proof long -term with accommodation or money in a decimated country. Ukraine is fucked. Really really fucked and it won’t be easy to survive.

Applications for free school meals are made on refugee status under the immigration act. They haven't got any 'alternative' status. Legally they are being treated as refugees.

I’m a teacher. There are no free school meals for them as refugees, only if they claim the right benefits.

evidence: thegrid.org.uk/assets/school-meals-ukranian-refugees-may2022.doc

many council using the term and locally offering meals have made the decision independently.

The homes for ukrainian scheme is being administered by the department for levelling up.

The family scheme is being administered by a different department.

Money is going to councils to allocate to services directly. So the money is going to Ukrainian refugees but through different channels. That doesn't mean they 'arent able to access' anything. They are being provided these things by other means which are certainly being overseen by the refugee council worker in my council. Indeed everything to do with Ukrainians is going through the titled refugee worker at the council (funny that).

The idea is because there are so many they can provide more and better services by doing it all as a lump sum rather than something that as refugees they can access individually which was the norm before. Its just scaled up.

Their immigration status definitely falls under the same article of the immigration act as any other refugee or asylum seeker.

www.gov.uk/guidance/homes-for-ukraine-scheme-frequently-asked-questions

The government bumpf refers to them as being here on humanitarian grounds. The article for free movement makes the point that the home office treat all refugees, asylum seekers and those here on humanitarian grounds the same in terms of returning to home nation.

So we can sit and argue about whether they are refugees or not all day. It doesn't matter if the home office has the same policy regardless.

They have supper certainly, in some areas excellent support in particular.

It doesn’t make them refugees, there is presumption here and links being made without legal status. There is a difference between being treated like a refugee in a number of ways, and being a refugee legally. I repeat- they are not asylum seekers, they have not applied for asylum nor are they likely to be able to. That’s the fundamental reason why they are not refugees.

As I said above, a refugee returning home jeopardises their asylum claim. That is the consequence. Not a border guard stopping you to investigate your travels should you be potentially dishonest.

Ukrainians won’t have an asylum claim.

It’s important the difference if you are either in the position of using the visas or have loved ones.

Thats why I’m trying to inform people. Some of this thread has got a little nasty with presumptions. All nations have problem groups and issues, but it’s not typical. Many are working. It’s fine to talk about problems and problem people, but some of this is crossing into ‘Ukrainians are awful’ presumptions. They are like British, some are awful- most are decent like us