To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

You could, you know, read about and learn the perspectives of black women and what they’re dealing with, without plopping. Not everything calls for contribution, you can just listen.

I've never plopped on BMN but i was told to sort other people out.

I am not going to sit and watch BMN like some peeping tom. Fucking hell. That's creepy.

Or should we be?

I am genuinely confused as to what it is we should do. Because whatever we do is wrong. Best to do nothing then i guess.

*Ok so we should leave black or brown women alone, and not talk about their issues whilst also understanding their issues and discussing them. So basically shut the fuck up white women. Because you are the wrong sort of women.
But also, solve all the issues and police other white women. Whilst making no assumptions.

Seems a simple enough task.*

Wow. That’s what you got out of that?

Whumpthereitis explained it quite well actually.

Yes, you should be reading BMN and listening to their experiences. And NOT posting. Sit on your hands if necessary because you don't need to contribute your perspective in that space.

[quote lameasahorse]@AlisonDonut I wonder why you bother with this thread since you simply misinterpret every single comment that does not 100% agree with you.[/quote]
I don't know why i bother either with any of it.

@Hont1986

Yes, you should be reading BMN and listening to their experiences. And NOT posting. Sit on your hands if necessary because you don't need to contribute your perspective in that space.

I have zero intention of typing words into BMN. Never had. I thought that much was clear by me saying time and again but hey.

Ok so we should leave black or brown women alone, and not talk about their issues whilst also understanding their issues and discussing them. So basically shut the fuck up white women.
Because you are the wrong sort of women.
But also, solve all the issues and police other white women. Whilst making no assumptions.
Maybe start with not having an angry reaction if someone suggests that some white women are not consistent in their allyship.

Erm no. The exact opposite. It's like you can't read words or something. I have zero intention of doing anything with the BMN board as requested by the BMN board.

What's so hard to get here?

@DomesticatedZombie

Feminism will never be 'done'.*

Women will always bear the reproductive burden, will always be vulnerable to stronger, larger males. This makes for a material inequality that can only be addressed by making moves towards equity by conscious intent, legal redress and the consent and consensus of the majority.

We have made amazing strides, though. Societal attitudes have shifted even in the past twenty years. There is much to celebrate and much to be done.

(*And women will always continue to be amazing).

Is there a deliberate ploy to derail threads about womens rights with internecine arguments about what’s now called racism? I requoted the post above as it succinctly stated those problem.

Questions of womens rights do cover some universal issues that women everywhere face, no matter what the colour of skin.

‘Scuse the misplaced sentence, it was supposed to be at the end: device issues.

That is such a powerful post from DomesticatedZombie. It really emphasise that we all need to try to work together to solve our universal issues.

Is there a deliberate ploy to derail threads about womens rights with internecine arguments about what’s now called racism? I requoted the post above as it succinctly stated those problem.
I suppose having one of the first replies in the thread, which did not otherwise invoke race, pointing the finger at black women, will do that.

I am not going to sit and watch BMN like some peeping tom. Fucking hell. That's creepy.

WTAF? Reading in order to learn and understand the experiences of other women is one of the most feminist things there is.

How do you equate it with a sex offence @AlisonDonut?

@TooBigForMyBoots

I am not going to sit and watch BMN like some peeping tom. Fucking hell. That's creepy.

WTAF? Reading in order to learn and understand the experiences of other women is one of the most feminist things there is.

How do you equate it with a sex offence @AlisonDonut?

I saw a thread in BMN when it was opened. It said it was for black and brown people only. So i closed it.

We've been told quite succinctly to leave them alone. I've been asked to tell white people to butt out. On this thread.

So i shall butt out as requested.

How did this discussion become about what other boards we post on or watch?

I am very sorry if the BMN space has been invaded, my understanding is that it primarily is for Black Mumsnetters but I will try to head over to read it if you all encourage me to do so.

In terms of feminism and sexual exploitation, I read this shocking article about the exploitation of Ukrainian women and children.

amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/24/vigilantes-stalk-ukraine-border-as-sex-traffickers-target-fleeing-women-and-children

Some people are sick

Simple question being asked please can you step back, not put your point forward and read posts and try to take on board where black and brown women may stand

Response no I can’t do that

Leaves many wondering why not ? Do you not want to support all women

Conclusion… many of us already know the answer

Questions of womens rights do cover some universal issues that women everywhere face, no matter what the colour of skin

Which reads like black women should just shut up about their issues, and focus on the important things as deemed by white feminists. Especially when the post that prompted this was an attack on black women for not doing just that. I read that thread in BMN, the one that’s been categorised as ‘black women are mad because they’re not being centred’, it’s frankly mind blowing that anyone that actually read it could take that from it, to the point it seems more like malice than ignorance.

It’s very easy to not worry about, or focus on, racism when you’re not the one having to live with it.

*We've been told quite succinctly to leave them alone. I've been asked to tell white people to butt out. On this thread.

So i shall butt out as requested.*

You keep saying that, but you haven’t so far.

I’d ask if you’re being deliberately disingenuous, but it would be a purely rhetorical question. By all means butt out if you’re so inclined, it’s not necessary to foot stomp publicly.

@HRTQueen

Simple question being asked please can you step back, not put your point forward and read posts and try to take on board where black and brown women may stand

Response no I can’t do that

Leaves many wondering why not ? Do you not want to support all women

Conclusion… many of us already know the answer

I was called a racist and then asked to keep white people out.

Many of us already know the answer to what? I'm happy to do what i have been asked to do. Which i already did anyway.

@Doubletoilandtrouble

Vestof, I saw the video where she was responding to this, she was in tears. She said she just cared about her women and girls and that she loved her women and girls

Yes, I saw it too. None of those trans allies or TWAW chanters on this thread and elsewhere give one shiny shit though. How can you campaign against this abhorrent practice if you cannot clearly and unequivocally name the victims of it and what the practice entails? What do the trans allies do, ah yes, wring their hands and bleat about the poor hurt feelings of trans people, demand 'inclusive' language that will exclude the victims of this practice, and abuse the woman standing for the victims. Slow hand clap for those who think doing this is feminism in any form.

No, it was an attempt to refocus on the universal issues that all women face by virtue of biology. That we all have to live with, usually on a daily basis, often accompanied by insults as we do.

Slight correction, doubletoil: some men are sick. We all know what women face in war, and reports have come out about the brutality Russian soldiers are showing. It’s less acknowledged that so many women have to face the same aggression in what men call peacetime.

Tbh I think it's a miracle that women have come as far as we have. For millions of years we have lived with people who are bigger and stronger than us, more aggressive, more violent than us etc, so women have always traditionally been at a disadvantage, presumably we have mostly evolved into 'support' people who are accommodating, patient, kind, also we need to attract one of these bigger people to protect us from all the other ones, so we need to be attractive, sexually available, whatever. We are at a stage in society now that brute strength is no longer necessary, intelligence is more important, this should be our time to stop being support humans and finally be treated as completely equal, but instead of our intellect being recognised, being female has somehow become fetishised and sexualized in society to a point that it seems to eclipse everything else. So many young women are celebrated only for their looks, they wear tiny clothes and huge heels while their male counterparts slepp around in comfortable, weather appropriate
clothes. They spend hours doing skincare, make up, hair, getting shit injected into their faces, and for what? So they will match up to the women on only fans, and in porn, and everywhere else that shoves glamourized over sexualized women down our throats. We are going backwards and its so depressing. When I was young I didn't see the disparity. I was in a job with payscales, the same for male and females, but it took years for me to see that it was the men that were getting promoted, even the ones who were pretty shit at their jobs, so ultimately they did earn more.

@VestofAbsurdity

We should all be shouting out against these injustices, and against FGM, an unspeakably abhorrent and unacceptable practice that goes on right under our noses here, but is never called out.

The woman who call this out and campaigns tirelessly against it is regularly abused and attacked on Twitter for dong so, by, you guessed it TRAs and their allies. She has been told to use more inclusive language and not centre the girls this abhorrent practice is carried out on, so all those on this thread who are saying they support all things trans this is what you are condoning. The TRA/Gender Ideology Agenda you are in thrall to is deeply misogynistic, homophobic, disablist and racist, and you call that feminist?

Indeed.

Here's the thread as one of the attacks happened, if anyone here wants to know more about it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack

I was called a racist and then asked to keep white people out.

If it walks, talks and waddles like one and all that.

White people who feel the need to centre themselves and ‘educate’ black women…on a space for black women. White people who then feign shock and play the victim when it goes down like a sack of shit. Can’t imagine why they wouldn’t be welcome.