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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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VestofAbsurdity · 18/04/2022 19:41

AlisonDonut has repeatedly said she has never posted on the BMN Board and has respected the directive on that Board and has subsequently been told to tell other white posters to do the same, is AlisonDonut the MN Police, is that official? I wasn't aware that AlisonDonut had the power vested in her to tell other posters where to post.

whumpthereitis · 18/04/2022 19:43

No, it was an attempt to refocus on the universal issues that all women face by virtue of biology. That we all have to live with, usually on a daily basis, often accompanied by insults as we do.

Which assumes that sexism is naturally a more pressing issue than racism, in terms of what people experience in their day to day lives.

VestofAbsurdity · 18/04/2022 19:43

@whumpthereitis

I was called a racist and then asked to keep white people out.

If it walks, talks and waddles like one and all that.

White people who feel the need to centre themselves and ‘educate’ black women…on a space for black women. White people who then feign shock and play the victim when it goes down like a sack of shit. Can’t imagine why they wouldn’t be welcome.

AlisonDonut has done none of this and you know this. Take your grievances with those who do this to them directly instead of cowardly berating someone who is not guilty of doing so.
LightSnowLight · 18/04/2022 19:48

Feminism is a meaningless term now. Maybe always has been.

Being a porn actress is feminist now. As is climbing the corporate ladder. As is being a SAHM. Caesarian birth or natural birth. Everything is female empowerment supposedly. It’s become a meaningless term. I take no notice.

Anyone who calls themselves a feminist now I just roll my eyes pretty much.

It’s just often pointless “look at me” semantics now.

phoenixrosehere · 18/04/2022 19:49

AlisonDonut has repeatedly said she has never posted on the BMN Board and has respected the directive on that Board and has subsequently been told to tell other white posters to do the same, is AlisonDonut the MN Police, is that official? I wasn't aware that AlisonDonut had the power vested in her to tell other posters where to post.

What directive? There isn’t a directive on the BMN. There is no spokesperson who can say who can and cannot post there. Just because one or two posters say that doesn’t mean they speak for the whole board. All is asked that you be respectful and not talk over or dismiss the experiences of the women there.

lameasahorse · 18/04/2022 19:51

This reply has been withdrawn

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whumpthereitis · 18/04/2022 19:52

Okay, Lancelot. If you actually read my posts you’ll notice I issued no instructions to Alison. I also don’t need to address anything privately on an open forum.

I was referring to the particular white women posters that do just that, expanding on Alison’s statement ‘asked to keep white people out’, like it’s inherently unreasonable to want a black space, and a black space that isn’t dominated by white women telling black women how wrong they are. If Alison isn’t doing that, then I’m not referring to her, am I? Smile

VestofAbsurdity · 18/04/2022 19:53

@phoenixrosehere

AlisonDonut has repeatedly said she has never posted on the BMN Board and has respected the directive on that Board and has subsequently been told to tell other white posters to do the same, is AlisonDonut the MN Police, is that official? I wasn't aware that AlisonDonut had the power vested in her to tell other posters where to post.

What directive? There isn’t a directive on the BMN. There is no spokesperson who can say who can and cannot post there. Just because one or two posters say that doesn’t mean they speak for the whole board. All is asked that you be respectful and not talk over or dismiss the experiences of the women there.

Take that up with those saying it then, AlisonDonut has done nothing wrong here yet she has been told to tell other white posters not to post on there and has been berated constantly on this thread.
phoenixrosehere · 18/04/2022 19:57

It was poster JoyLurking9to5 who decided that BMN were only focused on themselves and ridiculing them over their lack of involvement with trans issues.

VestofAbsurdity · 18/04/2022 19:59

@whumpthereitis

Okay, Lancelot. If you actually read my posts you’ll notice I issued no instructions to Alison. I also don’t need to address anything privately on an open forum.

I was referring to the particular white women posters that do just that, expanding on Alison’s statement ‘asked to keep white people out’, like it’s inherently unreasonable to want a black space, and a black space that isn’t dominated by white women telling black women how wrong they are. If Alison isn’t doing that, then I’m not referring to her, am I? Smile

Disingenuous much? Re-read your posts they were clearly directed at AlisonDonut.

Read back and you will see the post telling AlisonDonut to tell other white posters to keep out of BMN, it's here on this very thread, no-one, least of all AlisonDonut has said or implied anything in the realms of it being inherently unreasonable to want a black space on the contrary AlisonDonut has respected that and yet still you and others are accusing her and berating her.

phoenixrosehere · 18/04/2022 20:00

Take that up with those saying it then, AlisonDonut has done nothing wrong here yet she has been told to tell other white posters not to post on there and has been berated constantly on this thread.

Um.. Why? I didn’t say anything to her about that nor is that my duty. I literally said there is no spokesperson, yet you’re telling me to take it up with them as if I have control over what they say and do.

EyePeeEh · 18/04/2022 20:04

Read back and you will see the post telling AlisonDonut to tell other white posters to keep out of BMN, it's here on this very thread, no-one, least of all AlisonDonut has said or implied anything in the realms of it being inherently unreasonable to want a black space on the contrary AlisonDonut has respected that and yet still you and others are accusing her and berating her.
All I see is a poster being invited to read (without contribution) the perspectives of black women on the BMN board, but belligerently refusing to ever do so as a consequence of their hurt feelings.

whumpthereitis · 18/04/2022 20:06

Disingenuous much? Re-read your posts they were clearly directed at AlisonDonut.

Read back and you will see the post telling AlisonDonut to tell other white posters to keep out of BMN, it's here on this very thread, no-one, least of all AlisonDonut has said or implied anything in the realms of it being inherently unreasonable to want a black space on the contrary AlisonDonut has respected that and yet still you and others are accusing her and berating her.

Fucking hell, try reading comprehension. Yes, I have addressed Alison based on her contributions to this thread. I have not referred to anything she may or may not have posted on BMN, I have not told her to not post there, nor have I told her to keep anyone else out.

It certainly is implied when ‘keep white people out’ is stated without any form of context as to why that is desired.

DomesticatedZombie · 18/04/2022 20:07

For anyone interested in considering some issues within contemporary feminisms, Kathleen Stock's newsletter is excellent, and I highly recommend it.

Today's is discussing whether 'gender' is something that can or ought to be abolished.

kathleenstock.substack.com/p/lets-abolish-the-dream-of-gender

whumpthereitis · 18/04/2022 20:11

I should clarify. I have in fact asked why she thinks not posting there means she can’t read the threads there. I do suggest she doesn’t post there, but to read the threads, listen, and try to understand perspectives of others.

I personally don’t think white women should post there at all, given that it’s not our space. I have not, however, dictated to her.

ParsleySageRosemary · 18/04/2022 20:15

@whumpthereitis

No, it was an attempt to refocus on the universal issues that all women face by virtue of biology. That we all have to live with, usually on a daily basis, often accompanied by insults as we do.

Which assumes that sexism is naturally a more pressing issue than racism, in terms of what people experience in their day to day lives.

I don’t believe it does. I think suggesting that is akin to men complaining that feminism and womens rights does not centre them and their needs.

Intersectional interests are many and complex, but womens rights could be allowed to focus on women again. Or individuals could carry on attacking women who try to do that.

Mentioning Russia reminds me that there are many parties interested in promoting division over unity.

SoothingAvy · 18/04/2022 20:22

There was an interesting article on the BBC about this a while back.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47006912

One thing that comes out of it is that women who reject the term 'feminist' will often still support the idea of sexes being treated equally, so your assumption 'because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality' might be a simplification. Perhaps feminism is perceived by some as a white ABC-class thing, even if the underlying issues are not.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/04/2022 20:24

@whumpthereitis

No, it was an attempt to refocus on the universal issues that all women face by virtue of biology. That we all have to live with, usually on a daily basis, often accompanied by insults as we do.

Which assumes that sexism is naturally a more pressing issue than racism, in terms of what people experience in their day to day lives.

I think you're assuming that that identifying "the universal issues all women face by virtue of biology" means claiming that the issues related to being female trump all other issues a woman faces.

Issues related to being female can be both universal but also small fry compared to other unrelated issues in any individual woman's life, and I have zero issue with acknowledging that.

But these are universal, or at least global, issues that come to mind for me.

sexual assault (1 in 5 women is subjected to attempted rape or completed rape during her life time),
access to contraception,
access to gynaecological care,
access to maternity care,
medical misogyny (e.g. why are women not offered pain relief automatically during coil insertions?),
domestic violence and murder (2-3 women killed a week in the UK, and equivalent rates or worse across the world),
forced marriage,
FGM,
medication that is not tested on women during drug trials, and released untested.

Not an exhaustive list by any means.

It is not for me or anyone else to decide what are the more pressing personal issues for any other woman, and I try to trust women to set their own personal priorities.

TooBigForMyBoots · 18/04/2022 20:25

Yes, I saw it too. None of those trans allies or TWAW chanters on this thread and elsewhere give one shiny shit though.

Did someone on this thread say they don't care about FGM or online abuse of women @VestofAbsurdity, @PurgatoryOfPotholes?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/04/2022 20:25

And this is a thread on Feminist Goals, made after a series of discussions on various threads.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4184062-Feminist-goals-and-organisations-which-are-working-towards-them

user1471504747 · 18/04/2022 20:30

@EyePeeEh

Re. women of colour and feminism, something I’ve noticed on this site is that while issues facing Muslim women are generally not widely discussed, posters (who do not appear to be Muslim themselves) are happy to regularly leverage Muslim women in debates around transgender issues.

One gets the sense that issues facing Muslim women aren’t of particular concern until they can be co-opted to the benefit of white women.

I’ve noticed similar when it comes to women in prison. There are far, far, far more posts about the threat of trans women in women’s prisons being abusive than there are about Andy I’ve male prison officers in positions of power at women’s prisons.

Also other issues when it comes to women’s prisons e.g if I remember correctly the serious self harm rates are way higher, and something like half of female prisoners have experienced domestic violence.

But the main prison issue talked about is trans women in prison. While yes, it’s an issue, there are much more pressing issues being faced by far more female prisoners.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/04/2022 20:33

user1471504747

Here's the graphic so you can have the exact figures.

To feel despondent about feminism
VestofAbsurdity · 18/04/2022 20:34

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user1471504747 · 18/04/2022 20:36

Also a big thank you to al the posters on this thread and others recently calling out the racism. How you can call out racist post after racist post while on the very same thread being gaslit with people saying there’s no issues with racism, time and time again...well let’s just say I wish I could work my posts as eloquently as you

However I’m sure we all know how any posts angry about racism go...

Gin
VestofAbsurdity · 18/04/2022 20:36

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