To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

So you bumped the thread that you are complaining was bumped into the top 25?

Where did I complain it was bumped? You appear not to have understood my post. My point is that on day one of gender pay gap reporting for the FTSE250 24 out of 25 posts on page one of the feminism board were about trans rights.

I’m in danger of being repetitive here but one percent of the population who may be trans men are very obviously not going to be skewing a gender pay gap of over 50% to the point of making it unrepresentative. Women should care more about this because it’s their income and their pensions and the freedom to live the life they choose.

@Fiftythreepercent

So you bumped the thread that you are complaining was bumped into the top 25?

Where did I complain it was bumped? You appear not to have understood my post. My point is that on day one of gender pay gap reporting for the FTSE250 24 out of 25 posts on page one of the feminism board were about trans rights.

I’m in danger of being repetitive here but one percent of the population who may be trans men are very obviously not going to be skewing a gender pay gap of over 50% to the point of making it unrepresentative. Women should care more about this because it’s their income and their pensions and the freedom to live the life they choose.

The people upset about feminism being all about trans are the ones that keep bringing it up.

And don't even understand the basics, as trans men ARE females. So won't be skewing anything.

Feminism will never be 'done'.*

Women will always bear the reproductive burden, will always be vulnerable to stronger, larger males. This makes for a material inequality that can only be addressed by making moves towards equity by conscious intent, legal redress and the consent and consensus of the majority.

We have made amazing strides, though. Societal attitudes have shifted even in the past twenty years. There is much to celebrate and much to be done.

(*And women will always continue to be amazing).

I agree to some extent, OP. But I think we are at a critical point in history, where so many different factors are impacting on the way society functions.
Controversially (in some circles), I believe the internet has been absolutely terrible for us. It's negative impact is now far outweighing the benefits it brings. Pornography, search algorithms designed to push you towards more extreme material, online dating algorithms designed to keep you single. Crushing impact of social media on our politics and our children's mental health. All of this is so terrible for women (and, particularly with regards to online dating, men). Western culture is also in the process of rejecting essential concepts such as shame. We are only beginning to see the impact of this. No wonder feminism is divided. There's so much shit going on.
At the same time, I think there are some hard questions to answer about what is actually achievable with feminism, and what the impacts might be. The role of male violence within human societies, for instance (not just VAWG, but male violence generally) and the role of sexual selection in human behaviour. There's a lot to unpick and think about.

Very sorry for everyone thats been subject to ‘not proper woman’ comments as regards their family choices. Or anything else. I have had that stupid comment as regards my haircuts, my female partner choice, and have also had disparaging comments for having had children. Whatever the goalposts are that misogynists set for women they will then move them so women ‘fail’. Please don’t take it to heart. There’s a lot of internalised misogyny in many women, which obviously includes some who call themselves feminists.
It’s one of the rules of misogyny: women are whatever men say they are.
So they can all fuck right off with that.

The next areas we are going to need to look at:

environmental issues (women do and will bear the brunt of climate change)

tech and the internet

neoliberalism and/or alternatives

Totally agree with you OP that society is misogynistic. How can anyone deny it - look at the police, with their lad's culture in the Met, for example. And that society tends to see women as aberrations from the male ideal - look at car design, and the medical testing of drugs, for examples - done to suit the male body, though it now turns out that women's phsyiology reacts to many drugs differently, so we are not getting optimal care from medicines.
I would add to your list the absolute explosion and epidemic of violence against women, not just in this country. And our tolerance in our supposedly equal society of cultural norms that actively oppress women, such as the concept of honour and the restrictions it imposes on women and girls' lives. We should all be shouting out against these injustices, and against FGM, an unspeakably abhorrent and unacceptable practice that goes on right under our noses here, but is never called out.
MagnoliaXYZ There is a difference between your personal and individual experience, and structural issues in society that affect other women, and that need tackling.

And don't even understand the basics, as trans men ARE females. So won't be skewing anything

Indeed. Apologies my phone is autocorrecting

[quote 2TheLighthouse]@Fiftythreepercent
To look at it another way, though, the trans self ID issue is very significant to the salary and promotion issues you mention, surely? If ‘women’ no longer means ‘women’, then the statistics will disappear into nothingness, and we won’t be able to see where the inequality lies?[/quote]
I agree with this.
Where you don’t categorise women by sex, the pay gap conveniently disappears..
I found the “assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate” interesting, as this is something I didn’t think of at all for the first few decades of my life. I was coming up to forty before I started noticing how men see public space as their space, in a way that women do not.
I see the moaning about gender issues being too much discussed on here, but being able to clearly see which sex is disadvantaged in which situation is absolutely key to equality in all areas for girls and women. Everything hinges on that.
I feel eliminating females as a distinct sex class is the hidden agenda in the huge push towards gender identities. Women made gains, now women are losing again.

There is a difference between your personal and individual experience, and structural issues in society that affect other women, and that need tackling.

I think this distinction is key @HyacynthBucket - and it's an important one to understand in our everyday lives - I like the men in my life! But I know that they are affected/conditioned by the structures in which we live.

It doesn't give them a free pass though

I found the “assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate” interesting

There's been some fantastic work on the way girls are covertly edged (or overtly bullied) out of shared play space - I think the two women who set up the campaign drew quite a lot of information and support from MN!

For my generation (I'm in my 60s) it was social conditioning. Girls just didn't do certain things (sport, surf, go out on their own etc etc etc). Several decades of grass-root feminist campaigns and education initiatives have started to turn that around.

But we've been met by a tsunami of pink princessing. Again, there are some brilliant grass roots feminist campaigns such as Let Clothes be clothes."

As @DomesticatedZombie says, feminism is never really done - it's a constant battle, and we're all valiant foot soldiers! Each in our own ways, and doing/giving what we can.

ExMachina that is such a good point that feminism never is done. I also hate all this wave of pink which seems to have come recently. Why do clothes need to be so overtly “girls” or “boys”.

In terms of shared spaces, it is really hard for girls who want to play football. They boys often hog the ball and don’t let them play at brakes. And where there are a massive amount of boys junior football leagues, there are very few girls’ teams. Even if there is netball for girls, children compare the amount of training (football) available to boys compared to girls (netball). It is like girls’ sport not is taken seriously and it is really annoying.

Because some women espouse actions that actively harm other women. How can those women who are harmed support that?

Agree.

Me too, and as well as the trans issue confusions, some (not all?) black women seem to reject feminism as being offensive to them because it is not specifically aimed at black women. As if the issues aren't common to all women. As if financial dependency, lack of affordable childcare, a benefit structure that supports mothers/single mothers/furthering education to increase earning potential are things that are bad for women if they arent white.
Really shocking. The thread about "karens karening" was so depressing.

And this type of thinking is why so many black and brown women don’t want anything to do with feminists like you. None of you ever even try to actually listen or consider the simple fact that non-white women have spent centuries being seen as not only less than white women but also subhuman and even lesser than dogs. You’re asking women who aren’t even treated or seen as even worthy of protection to fight for something we barely have and then you want to make it out as if we’re trying to think of only ourselves. Disgusting and pathetic.

ExMachina that is such a good point that feminism never is done

ooo @Doubletoilandtrouble I can't take credit for that! It was quoted from the wonderful @DomesticatedZombie's post upthread!

I think things are getting worse if anything. Official levels may now know the official lines, laws and policies. But male attitudes seem to be getting worse. Violence against women and girls is acknowledged to be up, we have international charities wanting porn legitimised, the Leeds prostitution zone, and internet porn and celebrity culture all resulting in men and women both assuming that women are there for nothing beyond sex and maybe looking after the kids when they’re acknowledged to exist too. Yes, we all know NAMALT. But men are not improving - look at the risks faced by women and children refugees fleeing from Ukraine, that the UN has had to get involved in.

Parsley, I agree with all that, it is absolutely awful. Increasing porn, increasing violence, worsening attitudes and normalisation of bad behaviour towards women. I think feminists are needed more than ever, women who can stand against this.

lameas, that is shocking. I hope you have reported anything racist you have seen

Re. women of colour and feminism, something I’ve noticed on this site is that while issues facing Muslim women are generally not widely discussed, posters (who do not appear to be Muslim themselves) are happy to regularly leverage Muslim women in debates around transgender issues.

One gets the sense that issues facing Muslim women aren’t of particular concern until they can be co-opted to the benefit of white women.

Or the other way you could look at it, @EyePeeEh is that women (of whatever religion or none) know that the Equalities Act lists religion as one of the protected characteristics, and women also know that the Equalities Act does not specify a hierarchy of these protections (quite the reverse - each is equal).

So these women mentioning observant Muslims or observant Jews are concerned that one set of characteristics - gender reassignment - is being set above the protected characteristic of religion (or race in the case of Jewish people).

*Genuinely baffled. Are you saying that by posting in FWR you assume we are all racist and the way we show we aren't is by what? Keeping out of BMN or not keeping out of BMN?

And you want me to do what? Plop onto BMN threads to tell people who are white to stay out? Wouldn't that be doing exactly what you don't want?*

You could, you know, read about and learn the perspectives of black women and what they’re dealing with, without plopping. Not everything calls for contribution, you can just listen.

I’m a white woman. I don’t post on there because it’s not my space and my voice isn’t so important that it needs to be heard. That doesn’t take away from it being a valuable resource. There are things that white women will never experience that white centred feminism in its position of relative privilege, ignores.

Fucking hell. You can’t demand the support of black women when it suits you and dismiss them when they’re no longer useful.

I feel a bit despondent about feminism sometimes but I disagree that all those who don't identify as feminists do so because they think everything is sorted now.

Many women are dismissed before they get into it. Called Handmaidens, blue hair brigade, a cancer on feminism, dismissing the experiences and contributions from black, brown, religious, left wing women is never going to further the feminist cause.

Fortunately theres still a lot of campaigning for women's rights from groups who understand women. They don't need to call themselves feminist to get me on board. I am a feminist.

@EyePeeEh

Re. women of colour and feminism, something I’ve noticed on this site is that while issues facing Muslim women are generally not widely discussed, posters (who do not appear to be Muslim themselves) are happy to regularly leverage Muslim women in debates around transgender issues.

One gets the sense that issues facing Muslim women aren’t of particular concern until they can be co-opted to the benefit of white women.

Ok so we should leave black or brown women alone, and not talk about their issues whilst also understanding their issues and discussing them. So basically shut the fuck up white women. Because you are the wrong sort of women. But also, solve all the issues and police other white women. Whilst making no assumptions.

Seems a simple enough task.

We should all be shouting out against these injustices, and against FGM, an unspeakably abhorrent and unacceptable practice that goes on right under our noses here, but is never called out.

The woman who call this out and campaigns tirelessly against it is regularly abused and attacked on Twitter for dong so, by, you guessed it TRAs and their allies. She has been told to use more inclusive language and not centre the girls this abhorrent practice is carried out on, so all those on this thread who are saying they support all things trans this is what you are condoning. The TRA/Gender Ideology Agenda you are in thrall to is deeply misogynistic, homophobic, disablist and racist, and you call that feminist?

Vestof, I saw the video where she was responding to this, she was in tears. She said she just cared about her women and girls and that she loved her women and girls