To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

[quote PoTayToes80]@TeaKlaxon

What about when it’s the significantly higher earning roles you’re talking about?

Don’t ask me to do the maths, but I’m pretty sure that at my organisation it only takes the CEO and one of the other top 4 earners to be female for the gender pay gap picture to be significantly more positive, even if there’s been little change generally across other roles.[/quote]
If one person can skew the organisational pay balance to that extent, it is either an extremely small organisation (i.e. fewer than about 10 to 20 people, in which case the idea of a ‘CEO’ is a bit lofty) or the pay differential between the highest and lowest paid is scandalously wide and should be narrowed.

But good luck getting MN feminists to direct their attention towards pay inequality rather than shitting on trans people.

How many men have “accidentally” been killed during sex? And how many women? The answer to that might indicate whether certain kinks are a problem or not.

@2TheLighthouse

I despise the idea that everyone’s ‘kinks’ should be celebrated, and that ‘kink shaming’ is a faux pas. If you like choking women, be ashamed.

We don’t celebrate other base instincts. Some people like violence. We tell them it’s not ok.

But somehow, if your damaging tendency is motivated by sexual desire, it’s suddenly ok.

I get that from the 1960s onwards, sexual liberation was new, cool, progressive etc, and prudery was old-school, fogey and Victorian - but come in. It’s past a joke now. We’ve got enough sexual freedom here in the UK, and, yes, it will be the middle-aged women (guilty as charged) who have to call it out. Because it threatens us and our children. Call me Mary Whitehouse if you like.

What about the middle aged women who are into kink?

There’s a big difference between calling out violence and shaming someone for consensual sexual activity. Frankly what people do for sexual pleasure is none of your business provided it’s consensual.

I don’t want to know about people’s kinks. If people like some obscure sexual practice that, crucially, harms no one else , then let them get on with it. No one else needs to know. I’m not going to celebrate it with them as if they’re some kind of trail-blazer just because they find parsnips or something sexually arousing.

I would like to know how many boys who have felt pressured into sex compared to girls. I think girls are getting the short end of the stick.

I hate this glorification of prostitution that some people even on MN seems to argue. I refuse to accept that consent can be bought.

As for kinks, whatever floats your boat. But if a certain kink ends up with women dying, then something is badly wrong. I am still waiting for the number of men who have “accidentally” been killed during sex with a woman.

@Hont1986

The reason people are not supporting feminism is because the self declared feminists, especially on this site, keep ruining the reputation! I wouldn't call myself a feminist or seek out feminist spaces based on exposure to MN feminism.

All the people in the world?

Who knew MN is so powerful and the lodestone for this judgment by so many?

You might find it reassuring that, based on exposure to your posts in several areas of MN, I'm absolutely confident you are not now, nor ever have been, a feminist. More anti-woman with a pinch of MRA.

Small organisation size in the UK is considered those under 50 employees. And the nature of these businesses could well be that there is just such wide disparity.

That is what we are talking about and you are determined to ignore. That and the prevalence of middle aged males who have had significant advantages in their careers, often because if they had children they were not the primary carers of those children, who transition.

I notice that you did not then discuss the gender balanced board. One that was established to ensure that females got equal representation. And females were not 50% but were only 25%.

Again, though, let's move on as pp and OP has asked.

@Hont1986

The reason people are not supporting feminism is because the self declared feminists, especially on this site, keep ruining the reputation! I wouldn't call myself a feminist or seek out feminist spaces based on exposure to MN feminism.

When did feminism have a good reputation? When men were poncing about with t-shirts saying 'this is what a feminist looks like'?

But if a certain kink ends up with women dying, then something is badly wrong. I am still waiting for the number of men who have “accidentally” been killed during sex with a woman.

Yes.... there is a certain degree of ignoring that fact.

@Helleofabore

Small organisation size in the UK is considered those under 50 employees. And the nature of these businesses could well be that there is just such wide disparity.

That is what we are talking about and you are determined to ignore. That and the prevalence of middle aged males who have had significant advantages in their careers, often because if they had children they were not the primary carers of those children, who transition.

I notice that you did not then discuss the gender balanced board. One that was established to ensure that females got equal representation. And females were not 50% but were only 25%.

Again, though, let's move on as pp and OP has asked.

Jeez I didn’t discuss your specific example for which you provided no link? Colour me shocked.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus case in point!

2TheLighthouse

I absolutely agree. If a friend told me her partner was doing this and she enjoyed it I would tell her that she really needs to read up on how dangerous this so called kink act is. I wouldn’t be saying great that’s wonderful you have found something you both enjoy

No we are making the point that many feminists do not listen to all women if it doesn’t fit their narrative

I'm 51 and when I was young, with grandmothers who taught me that I was as good as and equal to any man, who too, me to Greenham Common and introduced me to a wonderful women accepting of anyone who wanted to join them.

Then I grew up and made a decision to not have children. Since that decision I have been on the receiving end of judgemental comments about that life choice. I've been told I'm not a proper women. My achievements and, worse, my difficulties have been dismissed as not important because I'm not a mother. All of this has been by other women.

I feel like there is no place for women like me in today's feminism.

Totally agree

Seriously?

Does that not seem just a bit, pathetic?

To reject a whole ideology based on some posters on a parenting website?

Beyond that, the pay gap occurs for many reasons, including partly because of the choices families with children make, such as who stops or cuts down work after children. Sometimes those choices are driven by earning potential, but quite often we are influenced by something less concrete, though whether it’s more down to nature that mothers are often the more involved parent, or whether it’s copying patterns our parents demonstrated is impossible to quantify. Making laws was the easier part of the equation. Sorting out why the problem persists, despite the laws, is very complex

Yes indeed.

I'm coming to think that it's because the workplace (and most of society really) is organised around male bodies and the male life pattern. Men don't get pregnant, and their prime working years don't coincide with their prime reproductive years.

In the 1970s, in order to get rid of things like unequal pay due to sex, and other kinds of advantages given to men because they were men, we feminists had to pretend - in some circumstances - that women were just the same as men.

It all got sort-of squashed up. What we needed to say was that even though women had babies & cared for them, this did not mean that they were not also just as capable as men in every way. But we were arguing against millennia of beliefs that because women had children, our brains & bodies were no good for anything else.

Public policy & politics & broad public opinion is not particularly nuanced. We needed to stamp out that old idea of:
women = childbearing = lesser intelligence, capability, irrational etc etc etc

We had to pretend that men & women were not different.

'Difference feminism" since the 1970s has helped us to start to make the more complex argument that yes, men & women have different bodies & capacities of their bodies. And that these do lead to some differences in our characters/behaviours. But these differences are NOT incapacity in women.

I think the next big battle for women and varieties of feminism is that we get a recognition that the workplace & social organisations should not be organised around the male as the default human. And that being a woman or girl should not be regarded as lesser, a weakness, or shameful, or anything else like that.

But the "equal but different" argument is a much more difficult one to make. I know why the pioneering feminists of the past on the whole tended to shy away from it. It wouldn't have got us the vote or equal ay.

But I think the concept that human = male is still a dominant one. That's the really big battle coming up.

(And it's one of the reasons why the trans issue is such a hot button, I think)

Also - we should really be talking about feminisms - the plural. There's no single monolithic feminist line. There's no set of principles you have to sign up to

It makes me very very sad and worried for my teen daughter☹️

I am with you, PP, frustrated and upset at the simple truth that in many situations women in this world are still treated and valued worse than animals. I can't stomach the injustices of the removal of basic human rights from women in Afghanistan and the world watches as if it doesn't matter. This is nothing less than gender apartheid.
Saudi and other middle Eastern treatment and curtailment to women's freedom,
Rape culture in india and basic disrespect for females in many parts of the world,
FGM the thought is sickening.
The strict religious rules used as reasons women must stay unheard, unseen, enslaved.
For such attitudes to prevail in the world in 2022 is shocking and whilst the UK has its own equality laws and some PPs on this thread feel we no longer live in a patriarchal society we most certainly do live in a patriarchal world. Our men see it and subconsciously and inevitably it underlines the concept of male superiority to all but the most resilient and intelligent civilised men.

@JoyLurking9to5

Me too, and as well as the trans issue confusions, some (not all?) black women seem to reject feminism as being offensive to them because it is not specifically aimed at black women. As if the issues aren't common to all women. As if financial dependency, lack of affordable childcare, a benefit structure that supports mothers/single mothers/furthering education to increase earning potential are things that are bad for women if they arent white. Really shocking. The thread about "karens karening" was so depressing.

You've completely missed the point of that thread. And it seems this thread was made just to so comments like this about black women's issues with feminism would be brought to the fore and trashed, yet again! It's not about feminism not being specifically about black women, it's about feminism ignoring issues that black women also face. Leave us alone, please!

@SecretSpAD

No we are making the point that many feminists do not listen to all women if it doesn’t fit their narrative

I'm 51 and when I was young, with grandmothers who taught me that I was as good as and equal to any man, who too, me to Greenham Common and introduced me to a wonderful women accepting of anyone who wanted to join them.

Then I grew up and made a decision to not have children. Since that decision I have been on the receiving end of judgemental comments about that life choice. I've been told I'm not a proper women. My achievements and, worse, my difficulties have been dismissed as not important because I'm not a mother. All of this has been by other women.

I feel like there is no place for women like me in today's feminism.

I was nodding my head so hard reading this. This, 100%!!

There's a good episode of Explained on netflix about this

secret, I am very sorry if you few left out. Hi have mentioned maternity a lot because that was when I felt the most helpless and when my career stalled. However, I have worked a lot with men over the years and been subject to both sexism and what today would be called sexual harassment (unwanted touch and comments).

As to the comments about what makes a “proper” woman, that really pisses me off. We are all women who make different choices in life. We should support each other, all women are different and find happiness in different ways. However, we cannot escape our biology (hormones, menopause, etc) even if some of us are more lucky. And society are harsher on women than on men, in terms of looks, family choices, age, everything.

@ExMachinaDeus

Beyond that, the pay gap occurs for many reasons, including partly because of the choices families with children make, such as who stops or cuts down work after children. Sometimes those choices are driven by earning potential, but quite often we are influenced by something less concrete, though whether it’s more down to nature that mothers are often the more involved parent, or whether it’s copying patterns our parents demonstrated is impossible to quantify. Making laws was the easier part of the equation. Sorting out why the problem persists, despite the laws, is very complex

Yes indeed.

I'm coming to think that it's because the workplace (and most of society really) is organised around male bodies and the male life pattern. Men don't get pregnant, and their prime working years don't coincide with their prime reproductive years.

In the 1970s, in order to get rid of things like unequal pay due to sex, and other kinds of advantages given to men because they were men, we feminists had to pretend - in some circumstances - that women were just the same as men.

It all got sort-of squashed up. What we needed to say was that even though women had babies & cared for them, this did not mean that they were not also just as capable as men in every way. But we were arguing against millennia of beliefs that because women had children, our brains & bodies were no good for anything else.

Public policy & politics & broad public opinion is not particularly nuanced. We needed to stamp out that old idea of:
women = childbearing = lesser intelligence, capability, irrational etc etc etc

We had to pretend that men & women were not different.

'Difference feminism" since the 1970s has helped us to start to make the more complex argument that yes, men & women have different bodies & capacities of their bodies. And that these do lead to some differences in our characters/behaviours. But these differences are NOT incapacity in women.

I think the next big battle for women and varieties of feminism is that we get a recognition that the workplace & social organisations should not be organised around the male as the default human. And that being a woman or girl should not be regarded as lesser, a weakness, or shameful, or anything else like that.

But the "equal but different" argument is a much more difficult one to make. I know why the pioneering feminists of the past on the whole tended to shy away from it. It wouldn't have got us the vote or equal ay.

But I think the concept that human = male is still a dominant one. That's the really big battle coming up.

(And it's one of the reasons why the trans issue is such a hot button, I think)

Also - we should really be talking about feminisms - the plural. There's no single monolithic feminist line. There's no set of principles you have to sign up to

This is a really helpful post. Thank you @ExMachinaDeus.

"Why women are paid less"