To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

I've never said that at all but stand corrected if you can quote me on suggesting feminists are.

@Lunar27
But did you read my OP? I was literally saying it’s going to take a lot of work undo all the bullshit, ergo we need people to get on board with feminism. It was my main point.

@Lunar27
my latest post was to your previous post. Not the latest one.

Apologies @Lunar27 Your position and @TruthHertz ’s have become blurred in my mind. Hope you’re not offended by that, but you do seem to espousing the same sort of viewpoint as the two men on this thread.

@2TheLighthouse

Yes of course I read your OP and I agree with this point entirely. Hence why I joked about the ease in which the patriarchy could be dismantled.

It's not going to be an easy task by any means and much less so for the average male on the street (like me). This is the context of my previous posts.

Even in the hypothetical scenario where the 1% in charge tried to exact real change, it would still take years for the remaining 99% to fully unravel everything, assuming everyone was on board.

IMHO this kind of makes that blog post ironic, hence my being facetious but obviously it's offended so will duck out as I'm not here to offend/snipe or get embroiled in arguments.

Yes men could have dismantled it long ago, men hold the positions of power, made and make the laws that govern us, men are listened to, men have had access to the vote, education, professions, politics for far longer than women. It could have gone away in a hurry if men wanted it to, women have had and still have to fight to be heard. Men enjoy the patriarchy because they all benefit from it in various ways.

I'm going to venture that many men are so saturated in male privilege that they are not really aware of it. I was shocked by how many men have absolutely no idea how many women have experienced sexual assault, for example. I think women swim in their subjugation as much as men swim in their prejudice, maybe that's common for situations where there is a hierarchy.

Tbh, that post was a TL;DR situation. 😂
But from skim reading it you're seriously reaching. Lots of "you say this...which suggests this...which, if true, would mean that."

I didn't say that white women don't face sexism. I'm pointing out that in the whole scheme of things the only group more privileged than them is white men - the ones they usually marry and whose wealth/privilege they often benefit from.

FWIW, Lunar, from what rough calculations I've tried to do I think it's around 1 in 20 males who are predators/abusive. So, still a minority, but far more than 1%.

Oh, aye. Women are privileged by marriage. I've heard this argument used to claim that Eva Braun was exactly as evil/bad/culpable as Hitler, because she was married to him.

@2TheLighthouse

No problem. I thought@TruthHertz was a woman 😂Not that it matters but anyways. No offense taken.

For any avoidance of doubt, I'm more in agreement with you than not. We may have some differing views on the finer details but this is likely down to life experiences and the fact I'm a man (with much to learn).

I’d actually like lunar to define what he means by the ‘anti-trans’ aspect of feminism he talked about back a few pages ago?

This is exactly how I feel. The men who want to help aren't the ones who most need to change.

I'm also being a bit facetious, and perhaps it's a bit childish of me, but I find lots of people who strongly associate with causes/isms to be a bit passive aggressive and self righteous tbh. As if they're definitely right and us poor idiots just haven't realised it yet. I just can't help myself sometimes.

I think a big part of being able to function in society and lead a happy existence is having a sense of perspective and being able to separate social issues from day to day life. I actually agree with many of the causes feminists follow and I'm happy to voice my opinions/sign petitions/etc, to generally support these things. But the difference is that I don't let studies I read or twitter posts hugely impact my day.

If you're sitting on the bus on the way to work with a face like a slapped arse because you've just read on your phone that male CEOs earn 2% more than female CEOs, well, you're just making yourself unhappy. I'm always reading posts on here from feminists who claim to be 'raging all the time' etc, and these people just sound a bit unstable tbh.

It's perfectly possible for women to earn extremely well in our society and most intelligent women who pursue education and a career can achieve this to varying degrees - although for a large proportion their priorities change when children arrive and the husband earns enough to facilitate more time spent at home.

I try and keep up to date with everything, but really my main focus is on what I want and whether I can achieve it. I can and have, and I believe most women can in this country. Whilst I honestly find a lot of hardcore socialists to be a bit bonkers, I also find a lot of western feminism to be overly capitalistic/materialistic and obsessed with who has what, how much, etc. I'm not sure it's always healthy to be fixating on the top few percenters - CEOs, politicians, etc. I think a lot of these people would be happier if they actually looked inwards rather than looking around for things to be angry about.

So your problem is that I bothered to explain the chain of reasoning. Indeed.

You're still hung up the idea that white women in a white country do not experience racism. Yes. This is true. We are talking of misogyny.

the only group more privileged than them is white men

Yes. White women are oppressed along one axis of oppression- the axis of sex. Are you claiming white men don't oppress white women?

Are you going to imply that women aren't oppressed by men in monoracial countries?

No problem. I thought@TruthHertz was a woman 😂Not that it matters but anyways. No offense taken.

I was female last time I checked. 😂 Although I'm surprised this hasn't yet been called into question considering the common belief on here that anybody who disagrees with some elements couldn't possibly be female.

Seriously, I don't think this is that hard. For white women to be unaffected by misogyny, it is necessary that the men they mix with aren't misogynistic.

So this is quite a big statement about white men, isn't it?

Oh, I see I have been outed as a bloke. 😂 Better wait for my big payrise now.

But none of this contradicts my original statement that lots of feminists just seem to like to find a bone to chew on. Many of the issues are legitimate, as I've repeatedly said, but it's easy to recognise the type of people who like to immerse themselves in victimhood and grievances.

I've much more respect for women that actually get stuck in and challenge patriarchal perceptions than those that just moan. If you don't want to work in a male dominated field yourself, for example, then don't moan that there aren't enough women doing so.

You've got yourself a nice tactic here, haven't you.

You can say whatever you like, and if anyone disagrees with you, then you can claim it's just feminists being argumentative for the sake of it!

Clever, but intellectually dishonest.

'passive aggressive and self righteous'
'with a face like a slapped arse'
'unstable'
'overly capitalistic/materialistic'

You know what, Truth, I think that is just sheer laziness. You are enjoying yourself flinging a list of casual insults at the women who are doing the work. You're happy to take the benefits of feminism, but beyond 'voice my opinions/sign petitions/etc', you're not going to lift a finger to help other women. You are happy to poke fun, ridicule and criticise, but you aren't going to bother yourself to actually spend any time addressing any issues, because they don't affect you personally.

If something needs to be changed, it takes time, and work and effort. But you'll dismiss that as women who 'like a bone to chew on'.

Have a pleasant evening.

'a bone to chew on'.

Like dogs the world over eh?

Meh, how are you taking down the patriarchy by writing walls of text on mumsnet? As I said, my issue is mainly with the 'woe is me' sentiment so many feminists display.

I've got a few mates who bang on about this stuff all the time. I actually almost had an argument with one a while back. She was banging on about not enough women in xyz jobs and I pointed out that she works in marketing and was lecturing somebody who works in the construction sector and can drive a 40 ton truck/use a torque wrench, etc. Didn't go down well, but I'm sick of feminists who are all talk, which I'm convinced is a fair number of them.

You all need to read this.

Female Prisoners Forced to Share Showers With Intact Males

Do you think being able to use a torque wrench means your opinions on any given subject are superior to those who work in marketing?

lecturing somebody who works in the construction sector and can drive a 40 ton truck/use a torque wrench, etc.

meh. Is this supposed to make you special? Where I come from this is not unusual. I have plenty of truckies & bus (coach) drivers in my family. And I can use a multitude of tools and can list off a long list of things stereotypically done by males that I can do. Again, I am no different to many people from the area I grew up in. Meh.

I also am in marketing. Whoopie!

Your posts still lack anything compelling to your arguments.

And the misogyny that comes through is still very apparent in the wording you use.

I suspect that pp thinks this is supposed to be a ‘I don’t conform, look at me’ type authority appeal.

That post explained a great deal to me between the lines though. Including explaining the stereotypes that pp throws around and the prejudices that they have shown on this thread.