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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 01/05/2022 13:21

Yeah!

Woman = Universal panacea

Woman = sticking plaster for all world ills.

Women =/= independent entity with a mind of its own!

Helleofabore · 01/05/2022 13:34

The continued dialogue around ‘there are worse things happening to others out there’ again says more about the person saying it than they people they are saying it to.

Every time it is deployed it is saying, worthy people should be focused on ‘this’ [insert thing here] not this.

So, by telling a person that someone has it worse, it is minimising their issue. It doesn’t matter that in this country, we are aiming to make things better and so it actually does matter if it is not about surviving.

When is it ok to start discussing other issues that are higher up the survival ladder? Who arbitrates that? And who arbitrates that the arbitrators are unbiased?

And is the person making that argument and throwing around the term ‘privilege’ merely projecting or are the distracting for some other agenda?

2TheLighthouse · 01/05/2022 13:44

@TruthHertz
You seem oddly focused on animal behaviour and testosterone etc. The thing is, I’m sure you’re right to some extent- it is biological. Men’s strength is determined by their physique and many of their behaviours are powered by hormones. However, the thing is we are not animals. We have to behave ourselves and monitor ourselves. Men can do this. Some of them just choose not to. Much of this animal behaviour has been tolerated at various points in history - but when it becomes socially unacceptable to, say, rape the servant, most men fall into line. Some don’t.

OP posts:
VestofAbsurdity · 01/05/2022 13:48

Despite holding most of the top positions in society I think men are also seen as disposable and will be fucked over by those in power when necessary as is happening in Ukraine with all the men being forced to stay and fight.

Men have held the levers of power, finance and law for millenia, ample time wouldn't you say for them to make changes and make a fairer more equitable society for both sexes? What's stopped them?

As for men being forced to stay and fight in Ukraine those women who have stayed to help the war effort are being raped by the invading forces and what sex class are those doing the raping? - Oh oops sorry I can't care about that or comment on it as I am in the privileged position of not being in a war zone and raped, must adopt the I'm alright Jack attitude. Perhaps the UN were wrong to care enough about rape of women in war to brand it as a war crime after all those passing that edict possess the privilege of it not being an issue for them personally much like the person who pushed to have it made a war crime, Angelina Jolie she should have kept her white privileged mouth shut eh TruthHertz?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/05/2022 17:04

However, so many (probs the majority) seem to be white and well educated, usually graduates, and in the whole scheme of things pretty privileged.

In the past year, I have seen people try to discredit women expressing feminist opinions on mumsnet by claiming:

• they didn't know enough about feminist theory to talk about women's rights because they hadn't studied it at university (implication being that MNers are non-graduates, or studied degrees in which historic feminist writing would never be covered)

• mumsnetters didn't know anything about the science (implication that MNers are non-graduates, or studied degrees which did had nothing to do with life sciences, pharmacy, medicine, psychology or nursing)

• mumsnetters didn't know anything about the law (implication being that MNers are non-graduates, or studied degrees that had nothing to do with law in any of its many guises)

Now we have a claim that feminists are mostly graduates. Some of these claims must be wishful thinking, because otherwise I'm not sure what any of my fellow mumsnetters can have studied. What's left? Maths, I suppose. Come to think of it, we do have at least two openly mathematical contributors to FWR. Mystery solved?

Next, let's discuss the white, because there is something very important bothering me here.

This is a UK site. The UK is 87% white. The majority of any group in the UK, unless its focus is mitigating racial inequalities, would be expected to be white. But there is something far more odd in your post. White women are subjected to misogyny. You speak as if to be white is to live a life free of sexism. No, it is to live a life free of racism. Do you think white men aren't misogynistic, or that they only target black women for their misogyny?

Do you think that this country or any other country wasn't misogynistic when it was 99% white? Because your wording does imply a belief that misogyny does not happen to white women, and thus that women would not have any reason to complain in a country where everyone was white. So from there, is that a suggestion that all the misogyny in the country is the fault of... men of colour? That's... an... unusual... opinion...

If that was entirely an unintentional implication on your part, and merely the unintended result of wildly throwing the word 'white' around to discredit women without thinking it through first, don't hesitate to say.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/05/2022 17:26

Despite holding most of the top positions in society I think men are also seen as disposable and will be fucked over by those in power when necessary

Yes, this is a common refrain - "patriarchy can't be real because some men are higher ranked in this social structure than others".

Anyway, the discussion of the UN Women tweet in this thread reminded me of part of this blog's response to the UN Women tweet. Do read the full thing.

P.S. not that it should matter, but no, the author isn't white.

extract

While it is true that toxic masculinity can make men’s lives more difficult, it is important to remember that patriarchy is a net benefit for men. Otherwise, it would not exist, and men themselves would have abolished it long ago. Every institution is a compromise between all parties and a reflection of the relative power those parties have. Patriarchy is no exception, and its existence is proof that men have more societal power than women, and enforce and perpetuate patriarchy because it benefits them overall.

TruthHertz · 01/05/2022 17:40

it is important to remember that patriarchy is a net benefit for men. Otherwise, it would not exist, and men themselves would have abolished it long ago.

Men have held the levers of power, finance and law for millenia, ample time wouldn't you say for them to make changes and make a fairer more equitable society for both sexes?

See, this is what I mean by lack of nuance.

It sounds easy when you reduce it to 'men', but the reality is that it's 1% of men holding the power, and the rest are just everyday citizens who maybe have some particular societal privileges over women but certainly aren't in a position to change the world.

The war in Ukraine was pretty much started by one man, but it doesn't mean that the average Russian male is able to do much about it, and most probably understand the dire consequence for them and their family if they attempt to stand up to a dictator.

Reducing it just to 'men' is a bit like saying 'western folk'. Why don't the western folk use all their money and influence to end world poverty? Why don't humans stop human violence and cease destroying the planet?

AlisonDonut · 01/05/2022 17:41

'Men are seen as disposable'.

How anyone can say this with a straight face is beyond me. Rapists are routinely let off prison sentences as it might hurt their careers to be jailed. And are being put into women's prison because male prison might be dangerous for them.

Un fucking believeable.

Helleofabore · 01/05/2022 17:42

Or is it that if a white woman suffers discrimination or misogyny she should not expect to address it. Or that they must must ask permission of the arbitration board of worthiness to speak of it, whether it is time for them to be able to mention it. Because the world can only deal with so much at one time and those women who have made progress in the past should expect to make no further progress until the arbitration board has said they could.

If this sounds ridiculous, so too is declaring that white, educated women ‘harp’ on with ‘dystophian nightmares’ and ‘melodrama’ and ‘self indulgence’ and don’t do anything to benefit all females or are conscious of the needs of all females.

Lunar27 · 01/05/2022 17:43

Hang on. I'll just get out my Patriarchy manual and look up the section that tells me how I dismantle it 😂😏

Us men may benefit from a system we had no part in constructing but other than doing our bit to work towards a more equal society, have absolutely no idea how to abolish anything.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/05/2022 17:53

Extract

This tweet from UN Women was rightfully making the rounds of ridicule on Radfem Twitter a month or so ago. But for some reason, it stuck with me. I kept coming back to it, trying to really articulate why I found it so toxic. So I really want to use it to very quickly explain a major failure in modern fauxminism: pandering to men.

The premises of this kind of argument go like this. One, feminism should include men, because feminism is a movement for everyone. Two, men can benefit from feminism, because men also suffer under patriarchy, I.e. through toxic masculinity, for example. Three, feminism can liberate women, too, by teaching men to overcome their toxic masculinity.

But none of this is truly feminist at all. It’s simply further ways in which women are emotional support animals to men, and, in that way, another failure of modern fauxminism.

Firstly, I would translate this tweet, and the other arguments of this kind, as “Women should help normalise men having and expressing their feelings.”

Ok. Now let’s take those premises one by one.

  1. Feminism should include men, because feminism is a movement for everyone.
No. See this article for more. But I will just briefly say, feminism is a movement for women, it specifically centres women, and anything else is not feminism, because it does not centre women.
  1. Men can benefit from feminism, because men also suffer under patriarchy, for example, through toxic masculinity.
While it is true that toxic masculinity can make men’s lives more difficult, it is important to remember that patriarchy is a net benefit for men. Otherwise, it would not exist, and men themselves would have abolished it long ago. Every institution is a compromise between all parties and a reflection of the relative power those parties have. Patriarchy is no exception, and its existence is proof that men have more societal power than women, and enforce and perpetuate patriarchy because it benefits them overall.

But this raises an important question. Should women help normalise men expressing their emotions?
Well, I would ask UN Women, why aren’t you asking men to do that? Why do we have to do it? How is it progress to place the onus of male enrichment on women? This tweet, like the fauxminist sentiment behind it, places women in the role of mother, nurturer, caretaker. But women as a group are not emotional support for men as a group. We don’t exist for male betterment. We exist for ourselves.

But this sentiment, “we have to help men handle their emotions,” is even more insidious than that. “We have to help men handle their emotions” leads to “men can’t handle their emotions” leads to “men can’t control themselves, women have to help them control themselves,” which is not a far cry from “she made me do it.”

Look, this tweet and the very common sentiment it communicates is part of rape culture. This sentiment contributes to rationalising male violence. It says, we need to teach men to share their emotions, and maybe then, they’ll stop hurting us. The world will be a better place for women if only women would teach men to stop lashing out at them! This tweet is a Beauty and the Beast tale: we can tame men into being good people. It is our job, and only then will we all be free.
And to all of that, I say bullshit.
Women do not exist to help men. Men, if you have toxic masculinity problems, if you have problems dealing with your emotions and expressing them, if it makes you violent, handle it your fucking selves. Use the resources patriarchy has given you—the resources you have taken—and fix your own problems.

TruthHertz · 01/05/2022 18:13

Lunar27 · 01/05/2022 17:43

Hang on. I'll just get out my Patriarchy manual and look up the section that tells me how I dismantle it 😂😏

Us men may benefit from a system we had no part in constructing but other than doing our bit to work towards a more equal society, have absolutely no idea how to abolish anything.

Exactly. 🤷‍♀️

My feller wouldn't know where to start. He's pretty handy with tools but I don't think he'd be able to dismantle anything as big as the patriarchy.

Helleofabore · 01/05/2022 18:18

This thread is a riot! Truly enlightening.

TruthHertz · 01/05/2022 18:20

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/05/2022 17:53

Extract

This tweet from UN Women was rightfully making the rounds of ridicule on Radfem Twitter a month or so ago. But for some reason, it stuck with me. I kept coming back to it, trying to really articulate why I found it so toxic. So I really want to use it to very quickly explain a major failure in modern fauxminism: pandering to men.

The premises of this kind of argument go like this. One, feminism should include men, because feminism is a movement for everyone. Two, men can benefit from feminism, because men also suffer under patriarchy, I.e. through toxic masculinity, for example. Three, feminism can liberate women, too, by teaching men to overcome their toxic masculinity.

But none of this is truly feminist at all. It’s simply further ways in which women are emotional support animals to men, and, in that way, another failure of modern fauxminism.

Firstly, I would translate this tweet, and the other arguments of this kind, as “Women should help normalise men having and expressing their feelings.”

Ok. Now let’s take those premises one by one.

  1. Feminism should include men, because feminism is a movement for everyone.
No. See this article for more. But I will just briefly say, feminism is a movement for women, it specifically centres women, and anything else is not feminism, because it does not centre women.
  1. Men can benefit from feminism, because men also suffer under patriarchy, for example, through toxic masculinity.
While it is true that toxic masculinity can make men’s lives more difficult, it is important to remember that patriarchy is a net benefit for men. Otherwise, it would not exist, and men themselves would have abolished it long ago. Every institution is a compromise between all parties and a reflection of the relative power those parties have. Patriarchy is no exception, and its existence is proof that men have more societal power than women, and enforce and perpetuate patriarchy because it benefits them overall.

But this raises an important question. Should women help normalise men expressing their emotions?
Well, I would ask UN Women, why aren’t you asking men to do that? Why do we have to do it? How is it progress to place the onus of male enrichment on women? This tweet, like the fauxminist sentiment behind it, places women in the role of mother, nurturer, caretaker. But women as a group are not emotional support for men as a group. We don’t exist for male betterment. We exist for ourselves.

But this sentiment, “we have to help men handle their emotions,” is even more insidious than that. “We have to help men handle their emotions” leads to “men can’t handle their emotions” leads to “men can’t control themselves, women have to help them control themselves,” which is not a far cry from “she made me do it.”

Look, this tweet and the very common sentiment it communicates is part of rape culture. This sentiment contributes to rationalising male violence. It says, we need to teach men to share their emotions, and maybe then, they’ll stop hurting us. The world will be a better place for women if only women would teach men to stop lashing out at them! This tweet is a Beauty and the Beast tale: we can tame men into being good people. It is our job, and only then will we all be free.
And to all of that, I say bullshit.
Women do not exist to help men. Men, if you have toxic masculinity problems, if you have problems dealing with your emotions and expressing them, if it makes you violent, handle it your fucking selves. Use the resources patriarchy has given you—the resources you have taken—and fix your own problems.

UN Women's directorate is 100% female. I'm assuming that in this case you don't believe in group culpability and don't feel it's your responsibility to solve it as a fellow woman?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/05/2022 18:22

UN Women's directorate is 100% female. I'm assuming that in this case you don't believe in group culpability and don't feel it's your responsibility to solve it as a fellow woman?

Any word on whether you meant to imply that misogyny was solely perpetrated by men of colour?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/05/2022 18:23

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/05/2022 17:04

However, so many (probs the majority) seem to be white and well educated, usually graduates, and in the whole scheme of things pretty privileged.

In the past year, I have seen people try to discredit women expressing feminist opinions on mumsnet by claiming:

• they didn't know enough about feminist theory to talk about women's rights because they hadn't studied it at university (implication being that MNers are non-graduates, or studied degrees in which historic feminist writing would never be covered)

• mumsnetters didn't know anything about the science (implication that MNers are non-graduates, or studied degrees which did had nothing to do with life sciences, pharmacy, medicine, psychology or nursing)

• mumsnetters didn't know anything about the law (implication being that MNers are non-graduates, or studied degrees that had nothing to do with law in any of its many guises)

Now we have a claim that feminists are mostly graduates. Some of these claims must be wishful thinking, because otherwise I'm not sure what any of my fellow mumsnetters can have studied. What's left? Maths, I suppose. Come to think of it, we do have at least two openly mathematical contributors to FWR. Mystery solved?

Next, let's discuss the white, because there is something very important bothering me here.

This is a UK site. The UK is 87% white. The majority of any group in the UK, unless its focus is mitigating racial inequalities, would be expected to be white. But there is something far more odd in your post. White women are subjected to misogyny. You speak as if to be white is to live a life free of sexism. No, it is to live a life free of racism. Do you think white men aren't misogynistic, or that they only target black women for their misogyny?

Do you think that this country or any other country wasn't misogynistic when it was 99% white? Because your wording does imply a belief that misogyny does not happen to white women, and thus that women would not have any reason to complain in a country where everyone was white. So from there, is that a suggestion that all the misogyny in the country is the fault of... men of colour? That's... an... unusual... opinion...

If that was entirely an unintentional implication on your part, and merely the unintended result of wildly throwing the word 'white' around to discredit women without thinking it through first, don't hesitate to say.

In case you missed it...

Lunar27 · 01/05/2022 18:30

@TruthHertz

Naturally I'm being facetious and not taking away from the fact that men need to help sort things out but that snippet is just plain bonkers. I'm sure the person who wrote it thought it was smart but is so ludicrous it's laughable.

Whatever the patriarchy is, it isn't something that was created with any planning by men, as a class, as we're not a homogeneous lump. Claiming that men could've dismantled it long ago sounds so conveniently easy but undoing thousands of years of social conditioning is far from it. It's like abolishing racism and not something that's going to go away in a hurry.

Those of us men that are interested in working towards a more equal society can do our best to unlock the shitty bits and make lives better for those that we come into contact with. But it's going to involve more than just the decent men doing their bit. It's going to involve changing the men that have no interest in being less violent or raping less. That is not easy at all and sadly I've no idea, other than eugenics, how to solve it.

Veryverycalmnow · 01/05/2022 18:46

YANBU

thedancingbear · 01/05/2022 19:18

Lunar27 · 01/05/2022 17:43

Hang on. I'll just get out my Patriarchy manual and look up the section that tells me how I dismantle it 😂😏

Us men may benefit from a system we had no part in constructing but other than doing our bit to work towards a more equal society, have absolutely no idea how to abolish anything.

So what little bit are you doing to make the world a more equal place for women, @Lunar27?

Apart from shouting them down (and using fucking wankerish laughing emojis) on a feminism chat board?

Helleofabore · 01/05/2022 19:33

I was going to ask this too dancingbear.

It is great to hear males say they strive for equality for women. But what are they doing when they are then shaming women on the internet for disagreeing with them and telling women what they should be focusing on and labeling the discussion around ensuring the provision of the rights of all females to overcome the impacts of centuries of negative sexist discrimination is prioritised ahead of any male as ‘anti-trans’?

2TheLighthouse · 01/05/2022 20:21

but undoing thousands of years of social conditioning is far from it. It's like abolishing racism and not something that's going to go away in a hurry.

Well, this is eerily like something I said in the OP…

OP posts:
2TheLighthouse · 01/05/2022 20:29

I mean, I never implied dismantling the patriarchy would be quick - just that it needs to be all hands on deck.

OP posts:
VestofAbsurdity · 01/05/2022 20:32

Lunar27 · 01/05/2022 18:30

@TruthHertz

Naturally I'm being facetious and not taking away from the fact that men need to help sort things out but that snippet is just plain bonkers. I'm sure the person who wrote it thought it was smart but is so ludicrous it's laughable.

Whatever the patriarchy is, it isn't something that was created with any planning by men, as a class, as we're not a homogeneous lump. Claiming that men could've dismantled it long ago sounds so conveniently easy but undoing thousands of years of social conditioning is far from it. It's like abolishing racism and not something that's going to go away in a hurry.

Those of us men that are interested in working towards a more equal society can do our best to unlock the shitty bits and make lives better for those that we come into contact with. But it's going to involve more than just the decent men doing their bit. It's going to involve changing the men that have no interest in being less violent or raping less. That is not easy at all and sadly I've no idea, other than eugenics, how to solve it.

This would be laughable if it wasn't so damn offensive.

Men need to help sort things out do they? Who would they be helping, who are the ones you deem having to do the heavy lifting on this, women perchance?

Patriarchy is not something created with any planning by men as a class? Oh do me a favour and stop talking codswallop.

Yes men could have dismantled it long ago, men hold the positions of power, made and make the laws that govern us, men are listened to, men have had access to the vote, education, professions, politics for far longer than women. It could have gone away in a hurry if men wanted it to, women have had and still have to fight to be heard. Men enjoy the patriarchy because they all benefit from it in various ways.

2TheLighthouse · 01/05/2022 20:33

Whatever the patriarchy is, it isn't something that was created with any planning by men, as a class, as we're not a homogeneous lump.

So men are too disparate to be jointly responsible for something, but feminists are a homogeneous, white middle class lump who are responsible for… well , all sorts of bad stuff. Got it.

OP posts:
Lunar27 · 01/05/2022 20:34

2TheLighthouse · 01/05/2022 20:21

but undoing thousands of years of social conditioning is far from it. It's like abolishing racism and not something that's going to go away in a hurry.

Well, this is eerily like something I said in the OP…

You say that like you're surprised people shouldn't be in general agreement with you. I don't think there's anything controversial about societal conditioning taking a long time to change.

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