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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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Doubletoilandtrouble · 19/04/2022 21:52

TooBig, thank you for saying that. I am used to TRAs defending and or minimising every single thing other TRAs do. Nobody was even prepared to say that the penis person who had their semi-erect penis less than one meter away from a 9-year old girl in a Korean spa was in the wrong. “The mum should not have taken her daughter there “ (blame the mum). “The girl shouldn’t have looked” (blame the girl). When it emerged that this person had several cautions for indecent exposure, still no TRA said it was wrong.

But I am also fed up with everything being about trans. It isn’t. It is about protecting vulnerable women and girls. It is about trying to find out how women can work together to keep our daughters safe from discrimination, harassment and being underpaid compared to men.

TheHateIsNotGood · 19/04/2022 21:58

And the emergence of Victimology in the late 20th Century. Whilst a very necessary viewpoint that needed exposure - many feminist issues have gone under the 'Victim' title.

Whilst victimology an aspect of Feminist perspectives it isn't the complete picture as it places Women as Victims rather than as strong people that can fight back and surpress aggression before it escalates.

VestofAbsurdity · 19/04/2022 22:02

[quote phoenixrosehere]@VestofAbsurdity

Also, did you ever consider that since you know more about this subject and click on various topics dealing with it that your algorithm presents you with more of this information?

When the JKR thing came out, I saw it on Facebook and scrolled past it because it was something to do with Twitter which I haven’t been on in years and don’t think that highly of it and part of the reason is the amount of abuse and threats that are allowed among other things.[/quote]
No, I just have my eyes and ears open and don't just scroll on by when I see a woman being subjected to off the scale threats and abuse for making an innocuous, inoffensive comment regarding a subject that was in the news due to there being a Government consultation on the issue which was, again, widely reported on everywhere.

MissyCooperismyShero · 19/04/2022 22:03

See I have never met a woman who wasn't a feminist. I have met some who say they are not, but God knows what they believe feminism to be. I have never met a woman who didn't believe in equal pay for work of equal value, paid maternity leave and the right to not be raped by a husband.

phoenixrosehere · 19/04/2022 22:15

No, I just have my eyes and ears open and don't just scroll on by when I see a woman being subjected to off the scale threats and abuse for making an innocuous, inoffensive comment regarding a subject that was in the news due to there being a Government consultation on the issue which was, again, widely reported on everywhere.

So you’re going to ignore the fact that you tried to call me a liar for not knowing everything that has been going on in your realm or on the FWR boards. I already said that I don’t agree or condone any type of abuse or violent threats against anyone regardless of their views. JKR is also not the first to be subjected to abuse or threats for her comments nor will she be the last and that is obviously a problem and always has been with any woman who uses her voice. I don’t need to look further into it to see and know that such things are wrong.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2022 22:36

JKR
Kathleen Stock
Allison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Helen Steel
Jo Phoenix
Raquel Rosario Sanchez
Heather Brunskell Evans
Jess de Wahls
Nina Paley
Sonia Appleby
Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
Jenny Murray
Julie Bindel
Venice Allen
Suzanne Moore
Hibo Wardare
Pragna Patel
Kelly Jay Keene
Maria MacLachlan
Rosie Duffield
Joanna Cherry
Rachel Rooney
Birdy Rose
Martina Navratilova
Sharron Davies
Emma Bateman
Katie Alcock
Helen Watts
Louise Moody
Marion Millar
Dawn Furness
Linda Bellos

etc. etc. etc.

These are just off the top of my head. There are many more women who are facing death threats, rape threats, job losses, destruction of their businesses, litigation, prosecution, expulsion from political parties ... There are many more women who are not even able to be public about what is happening to them.

I Agree @VestofAbsurdity. I don't buy it either. It looks like willful ignorance at this point.

TheHateIsNotGood · 19/04/2022 22:45

And it seems that the core Feminist issues are yet again superceded by A.N. Other issue, currently Trans-rights.

Rather than focussing on legal Rights it's social acceptance that inhibits 'equality' for Women and Minority Groups (of individuals).

A Feminist perspective could still currently argue that whilst Women may have some legal rights in regards to child-bearing and the workplace, there is still a long way to go in terms of domestic responsibilities as evidenced by many MN threads.

It seems to me that Society has quite a bit of catching up to do.

phoenixrosehere · 19/04/2022 22:54

I only know of one of those women besides JKR and that is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, however not in concerns with anything trans-related.

It is not willfull ignorance, it is being overwhelmed with the many things under the feminist umbrella that needs to be tackle and prioritising those that I understand more and think I can better support but what does it matter because I’m already being considered a liar, ignorant and probably not the right kind of feminist. Hey ho though, I’ve been considered and dealt with much worse.

Good night @VestofAbsurdity & @LangClegsInSpace

LCD39 · 19/04/2022 23:06

This is such an interesting topic @2TheLighthouse and I totally agree! Other things to add to the list

Mothers being made to feel that they have no maternal rights over their children. I am shocked so many young babies have custody split 50/50, this is against nature and maternal/mothering instincts but family courts rule in favour of 50/50 all the time. (I'm not talking about women who refuse to let their ex see their children out of spite, I'm talking about mothers of young children who want to create a st bake environment whilst maintaining contact with father)!

Men calling women mad, when they disagree with something!

Predominantly women having to give up work as childcare is too expensive! If it affected more men, I'd bet we'd have better childcare support!

The fact heart attack symptoms are very different in men and women but we mainly hear about the male symptoms!

I could go on... and on...

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2022 23:31

@phoenixrosehere

I only know of one of those women besides JKR and that is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, however not in concerns with anything trans-related.

It is not willfull ignorance, it is being overwhelmed with the many things under the feminist umbrella that needs to be tackle and prioritising those that I understand more and think I can better support but what does it matter because I’m already being considered a liar, ignorant and probably not the right kind of feminist. Hey ho though, I’ve been considered and dealt with much worse.

Good night @VestofAbsurdity & @LangClegsInSpace

Well then find out what has been happening to Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. That's a very good place to start.

Then maybe look up Allison Bailey and Raquel Rosario Sanchez and see if you could support them.

Good night.

2TheLighthouse · 20/04/2022 07:06

@thedancingbear

You say I didn’t mention trans issues at all in my OP, but what did you think I meant by the final bullet point?

To me, it’s not a separate issue; it’s part of the drive to undermine women.

OP posts:
thedancingbear · 20/04/2022 10:01

@2TheLighthouse

You mean this:

the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

?

If so, I didn't perceive this as a trans jibe as I don't labour under the prejudice that the trans 'thing' is principally about sexual kink. Whilst Autogynephilia (sp? I'm not googling it) clearly exists, I don't expect the large majority of trans people fall into that category - not least transmen - and to characterise transgenderism in that way is pretty repellent to be honest.

Helleofabore · 20/04/2022 10:16

'I don't expect the large majority of trans people fall into that category - not least transmen - and to characterise transgenderism in that way is pretty repellent to be honest.'

And yet, since it has been aggressively denounced there is little chance to study it and therefore there is no way to know just how many mature male transitioners (or young male transitioners) can be categorised this way. You cannot deny that it IS one aspect of it and it may be much larger than you want to admit.

But thank you for not denying that it is a part of some transitioners decisions.

SleeplessInEngland · 20/04/2022 10:19

"the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks"

Probably not a popular opinon but I think this is a mean-spirited way of characterising the trans issue, and kind of plays into the worst suspicions TRAs have about 'mumsnet feminists'.

As for the broader point, I'm philosophical: new generations having their own interpretations of a movement are inescable, as is the friction that comes from that. Feminism was always going to move on, whether we like it or not. I can have my opinions on aspects of it but I can accept the inevitablity of it, and even regard it as intellectually healthy.

thedancingbear · 20/04/2022 10:43

Helleofabore · 20/04/2022 10:16

'I don't expect the large majority of trans people fall into that category - not least transmen - and to characterise transgenderism in that way is pretty repellent to be honest.'

And yet, since it has been aggressively denounced there is little chance to study it and therefore there is no way to know just how many mature male transitioners (or young male transitioners) can be categorised this way. You cannot deny that it IS one aspect of it and it may be much larger than you want to admit.

But thank you for not denying that it is a part of some transitioners decisions.

The thing is, it's not unreasonable for decent trans-people (ie. non-perverts) to aggressively denounce the characterisation. And it's also clear that there are some people (cf. the OP) who do see trans people in that way. So we're just going round in circles.

To the extent that anecdata is any use at all, I've met, to my knowledge, three trans people in my entire life - two kids (one of each sex) and one trans man. All three lovely (one, one of my son's best friends), none, on the face of it, aping the opposite sex for thrills. As such, I think I'm within my rights to find the OP offensive and transphobic.

Helleofabore · 20/04/2022 10:57

To the extent that anecdata is any use at all, I've met, to my knowledge, three trans people in my entire life - two kids (one of each sex) and one trans man. All three lovely (one, one of my son's best friends), none, on the face of it, aping the opposite sex for thrills. As such, I think I'm within my rights to find the OP offensive and transphobic.

I, too, know a number of trans people. And not one of them are mature male transitioners either. So what?

I am not sure why you have latched onto that final point in particular. OP has not said anything there that indicates that they believe that 'all trans people' are like that. Merely that it is one of the things that make OP furious when it happens.

Maybe you can explain why you have taken it as an absolutist statement and not any of the others, unless your intention is to shame the OP.

Fishwishy · 20/04/2022 11:00

Well I will have a go because this is on aibu. Most of this is just claptrap and typical militant Mumsnet feminism which has very little support outside of the site. There are 2 I don object to incels (although like the phrase the far right is often expanded to include anything seen as Mon feminist) an women not being able to walk around topless again no issues with that. The ones around porn and sex is entirely up for consenting adults to police I don't think it is appropriate to tell adults what they can do sexually as long as they consent. And the kicking of footballs comments is deeply sexist since when has football been solely the presence of boys. Meanwhile Mumsnet becomes a community of people blaming everything on men and becomes more and more detached from what I see and hear daily from the moderate non extreme feminist position.

DomesticatedZombie · 20/04/2022 11:15

Ooh, militant. Not heard a 'militant' in about 18 years. What else have you got, Fishwishy? Oh, there's only six of us, yep, got that. Topless ... walking about ... okay, whatever floats your boat ... ah, 'blaming everything on men', lovely finish there with a trad nod to NAMALT.

Overall, 6/10, could try harder.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 20/04/2022 11:28

DomesticatedZombie · 20/04/2022 11:15

Ooh, militant. Not heard a 'militant' in about 18 years. What else have you got, Fishwishy? Oh, there's only six of us, yep, got that. Topless ... walking about ... okay, whatever floats your boat ... ah, 'blaming everything on men', lovely finish there with a trad nod to NAMALT.

Overall, 6/10, could try harder.

Normally I hate how the FWR trans obsession permeates MN but I think the fact that this has been in AIBU and more the gc's post the more single minded, unreasonable, fanatic and cult like they appear, everyone else who isnt on board with their ideology and arent comfortable with calling themselves feminists because of it clearly believe in the fight that feminism still has to fight just not as single minded as the FWR lot, gives me hope tbh

AlisonDonut · 20/04/2022 11:33

Fishwishy · 20/04/2022 11:00

Well I will have a go because this is on aibu. Most of this is just claptrap and typical militant Mumsnet feminism which has very little support outside of the site. There are 2 I don object to incels (although like the phrase the far right is often expanded to include anything seen as Mon feminist) an women not being able to walk around topless again no issues with that. The ones around porn and sex is entirely up for consenting adults to police I don't think it is appropriate to tell adults what they can do sexually as long as they consent. And the kicking of footballs comments is deeply sexist since when has football been solely the presence of boys. Meanwhile Mumsnet becomes a community of people blaming everything on men and becomes more and more detached from what I see and hear daily from the moderate non extreme feminist position.

Claptrap...objecting to laws being changed to allow men unfettered access to all single sex female spaces, is claptrap now. Excellent news. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/04/2022 11:41

JustAnotherPoster00 · 20/04/2022 11:28

Normally I hate how the FWR trans obsession permeates MN but I think the fact that this has been in AIBU and more the gc's post the more single minded, unreasonable, fanatic and cult like they appear, everyone else who isnt on board with their ideology and arent comfortable with calling themselves feminists because of it clearly believe in the fight that feminism still has to fight just not as single minded as the FWR lot, gives me hope tbh

I'm sure you'll give lots more people, who perhaps incline to a point of view you approve of, hope, if you do something to fight for feminism other than occasionally plopping in FWR and politics threads.

Perhaps you should do that. Be the change yiu want to see!

DomesticatedZombie · 20/04/2022 11:41

JustAnotherPoster00 · 20/04/2022 11:28

Normally I hate how the FWR trans obsession permeates MN but I think the fact that this has been in AIBU and more the gc's post the more single minded, unreasonable, fanatic and cult like they appear, everyone else who isnt on board with their ideology and arent comfortable with calling themselves feminists because of it clearly believe in the fight that feminism still has to fight just not as single minded as the FWR lot, gives me hope tbh

'single minded, unreasonable, fanatic and cult like'. Jolly good. Keep going and we'll get the whole bingo card by lunch time.

The thing is that the more insults, smears or sneers people fling at feminists, the more it 1. bounces off like water off a duck's back, and 2. shows that we must be shaking things up. So, bring it, dear, keep going!

If you have any actual arguments or points to discuss, I'm sure several women will be happy to do so in a spirit of mutual respect and reciprocity.

DomesticatedZombie · 20/04/2022 11:42

Good god, we can nest replies. I wonder how long these threads can feasibly go ...

I see we have gif ability now, too ... <fingers twitch>

DomesticatedZombie · 20/04/2022 11:43

Is that working? Are the dinosaurs dancing?

DomesticatedZombie · 20/04/2022 11:43

They're not dancing for me. Now I really am despondent. 😓

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