To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

Not dancing for me. I'm just going to post a random image to see how the image uploader works.

I usually look at the posters who are determined to demonise a particular board, or user or users and wonder at their motivation. If someone cannot put forward a reasoned argument to support a position they are not willing to discuss, why?

And why dehumanise groups calling them things like 'the gcs', as well? Just because you don't agree with them. Have you ever tried to positively engage with threads and posts without first declaring your prejudice against a group of posters?

When we talk about male sexual kinks, it isn't us linking that to 'the trans issue', it is those that purportedly are 'pro-trans' that make that link.

Weird.

The OP specifically stated that it was a reference to trans people in her post of 7.06 this morning?

I couldn't agree more OP - your post has hit the nail right on the head. I am also worried and angry about all the things you mention. In particular worried about my DD who is 13 and what she will face in terms of relationships/men when she's older and out there in the world without us to protect her.

If you look at the OP's post of 7.06 - and I'll agree it's implicit - she is, to me, saying that her reference to 'the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks' is intended to represent the trans 'thing' generally. That's certainly how I took it.

OP, if I have misunderstood you, I apologise.

And I think it does matter if none of the trans people that you and I know are (superficially) sex perverts, because, whilst it's a small dataset, it's enough to think the more general characterisation is off-beam.

You mean this post highlighted below?

To me, it's not a separate issue; it's part of the drive to undermine women'

Again, I ask what part of that is an indication that OP thinks 'ALL' trans people are sexual fetishists? That seems quite the bad faith reading there dancing.

Let's break this down.

OP firstly is talking about 'male' sexual kinks. What part of this would ever refer to female trans people? At all? Considering you acknowledge that there IS female trans people, it is not logical for you to draw the conclusion that OP is referring to ALL trans people.

Indeed, thedancingbear have you not read the interim Cass Report discussed in-depth on the FWR board that you are regularly on? You would know very well that the majority of the current transitioners who are adolescent and younger are female!! So, there is a very good chance that any person who has read up on this issue would not make the mistake of assuming that the only trans people discussed on that board are male. In fact, rather a great deal of threads are dedicated to discussing female transitioners. Why? Because feminism is for centring female people. Plus, many posters are living with the impact of this movement on their children on a daily basis.

So, why assume that OP would ever mean that all trans people are being referred to as having ‘kinks’, unless you are aiming to shame the OP and other women in some way.

Secondly, where does OP also exclude males who are not trans who expect females to accommodate their 'kink'. Nowhere. They are included in that statement. Hence the follow up stating it is NOT a separate issue. Looking at the growing number of females being harmed from one single action at the moment, choking, I don't recall seeing much discussion about the same number of males being harmed by females with this action. Plus, I have not seen any discussion on the break down of transitioned vs not transitioned males who engage in this activity.

It does seem from my reading to be a MALE issue though.

I will leave the OP to come back and tell us what they meant with their posts.

And by the way, I also have known some very abusive males who outside of their victims, others would never know just how abusive they were. So, I would not even consider the 'knowing someone' dataset at all in any case. Because, I have come to discover males that I thought were lovely were in time exposed to be horrific abusers.

Again, to be clear. Not all trans people are like that, just as Not all males are like that.

The point of class analysis is to get rid of that anecdotal 'my mates are not like that' bias to look at what happens at a class level. In this case, the 'class' = all males. However they identify and the prevalence of 'kinks'.

I think I am still waiting to hear about how men men that “accidentally” have been killed by a woman during some weird sex game?

and I think someone made a comment about football being for boys according to FWR? I made the comment that girls who want to play football has more difficulty in finding a team, sign up for a league, access equal training - and in some cases get hold of the football at break time (boys often hog the ball). I struggle to see why this is a weird, outdated observation?

I made the comment that girls who want to play football has more difficulty in finding a team, sign up for a league, access equal training - and in some cases get hold of the football at break time (boys often hog the ball). I struggle to see why this is a weird, outdated observation?

It isn't at all. My own teen found it hard to find a team and get the same quality of coaching that was offered to the males. They were also not allowed to play with the boys in primary school at lunch, due to the boys being too rough and the teachers shunted any interested girls off to netball where any girl that did not play on the weekend's was left out.

This is current. So any person trying to tell me that football has no negative sex discrimination today must live in a bloody awesome area. Considering my teen's team was one of the most inclusive in the UK for female football, I would like to know just where they live if they are saying females are not discriminated against in football today.

We CAN nest quotes.... but I have found it has crashed a couple of times I have tried to do it.

Sorry for my absence after posting what I see was quite an incendiary statement earlier. Have just had a very quick read through and have picked up on this from @thedancingbear

As such, I think I'm within my rights to find the OP offensive and transphobic.

This was because I referenced male sexual kinks and linked that to trans issues. To clarify, aurogynephilia is a sexual kink which many trans women have openly stated as a motivation in their transition (I posted a link to a very clear account of this in men’s own words). I am open about the fact that I resent pandering to/being forced to participate in someone else’s sexual kink at the expense of my personal dignity and honesty. Clearly, all trans people are not driven by this sexual kink, not least because it would be impossible for this to apply to females.

But the wholesale pandering to this particular urge does disproportionately drive a threatening trans agenda because powerful white men are at the helm, as per my very earliest points. So, male sexual kink is a major, but not sole, factor in the trans juggernaut.

I hope that’s clearer?

Thanks @2TheLighthouse . That is clearer but it doesn't reflect my experience of interacting with trans people at all.

I believe you. I’m quite sure that there are loads of lovely trans people.

But it’s my belief that the power behind the trans movement comes from a combination of misogyny and middle-aged white male sexual kink. I don’t think the loud obnoxious online presence of trans people/allies is driven by people like your nice trans friends.

It’s the power dynamic I object to. We, as girls and women, are always secondary to male wants and desires. Always.

I disagree that everyone knows about the trans issue. Most people where I live don't. There is little about it in our local media and I haven't seen anything about it wrt elections. If you ask, they might say they saw something about 86 genders and roll their eyes.

It isn't on everyone's radar.

That is clearer but it doesn't reflect my experience of interacting with trans people at all.

You've met three trans people, you said? Two children, one a transman.

AGP is a paraphilia that occurs in males. I've met several AGP males, one of them masturbating in the women's toilets.

Yet here we all are.

Unfortunately, it does mine. Including having to work with someone who turned up in work, on his day off, in a pink checked Little Bo Peep outfit. Complete with pigtails and pink panties. No thank you.

What kind of trans people make up the majority is of less interest to me than what kind of trans people create and shape policy. The trans people I interact with most are teenaged female transitioners and slightly older, and they are too busy doing their GCSEs and A-levels to be influencing national policies. Instead, it seems to mostly be middle-aged people, who were well established in their careers before transitioning, and who did not owe any of their career successes to women's rights campaigners opening doors for them.

I think that's relevant.

Well, that is at least new.

Bad news- women can spend their money how they like, and prioritise it how they like. That may even include the occasional national express coach/mega bus to London Victoria Coach station, or even a train ticket.

Some women even live in London, and are unaware that living in London means they're disqualified from having views on women's rights. Hopefully they'll see your post and find out.

You know, when I first joined MN, I was just a couple of years out of living in a homeless hostel, barely out of my teens, and I didn't manage to summon up this much resentment of women for spending their own money, even when they were posting threads about multi-thousand-pound handbags.

Although I still don't get the handbag love. Best one I've ever had was a secondhand one I bought for £8 off ebay. £8 is also the price of the last Megabus ticket I bought to visit another city for the day, come to think of it.

theconversation.com/the-pandemics-disproportionate-impact-on-women-is-derailing-decades-of-progress-on-gender-equality-180941

This is something I have thought a lot about and which I think not is getting enough attention. Covid really sucked for women. I wish they did more research into this and tried to see how we can catch up again.