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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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phoenixrosehere · 19/04/2022 18:20

*You are so used to being allowed to slag off feminists who don't agree with you, you forget that people that agree with you are the ones that are sterilising non-conformist kids. We just want laws that protect women and girls against males to be upheld. I do not see why you have to keep objecting to that by making false (oh if you believe that you must like Hitler/Trump/any other maniac.)

It really is tedious. Object with your own arguments if you have them but just give it a fucking rest.*

And how are you any better? You are doing the exact same thing you’re accusing them of.

Did it ever occur to you or VestofAbsurdity that some of us on this thread may be silent because we have no idea what you are talking about with the specific things and threads you have mentioned hence not responding?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 19/04/2022 18:44

Did it ever occur to you or VestofAbsurdity that some of us on this thread may be silent because we have no idea what you are talking about with the specific things and threads you have mentioned hence not responding?

Ah! The perennial issue of those arriving today and those who have been her for years. One is unaware, just learning, the other terminally incensed by the evil shit some people do to others. And often the two clash because, well, emotions.

And this is still posted in AIBU, not FWR. Those Who Monitor haven't had it shifted, yet. This is unusual, so unusual that the assumption is that this must be FWR*, where everyone is either already aware or asking lots of questions, actively learning - or being a TRA apologist, of course.

A little slack is required by everyone, I think. Cool your jets and all that.

  • That's the feminism section, so recently, lamentably, hacked in two!
phoenixrosehere · 19/04/2022 18:49

A little slack is required by everyone, I think. Cool your jets and all that.

Yep, pretty much. 🙂

AlisonDonut · 19/04/2022 19:16

And how are you any better? You are doing the exact same thing you’re accusing them of.

Yes it was a comparison, meaning if we did the same thing we'd get banned for it.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 19/04/2022 19:29

For the women here new to the trans debate. I am so sorry but I don’t have the energy to explain tonight.

In a nutshell, women on FWR are worried about

  1. their daughters declaring that they are trans due to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria. Teenaged girls declaring themselves trans are up more than 1000% but no increase in adult women.

  2. the impact of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones on children (spoiler, not good. Discontinued in Sweden due to severe side effects)

  3. predatory men claiming to be trans to get access to vulnerable women and girls (prisons, hospital wards, rape counselling, changing rooms etc).

Many FWR women are lesbians, left wing etc. almost all just want to protect women and girls. They are being called right wing (because in the US GC women are right wing), bigots (did I mention lesbians?), nazis (no idea why) and now racists. Mainly, women on FWR want to protect vulnerable women and girls.

Below are two threads. One “break it down for me” which is a thread on why FWR women care. The other ones is called “It will never happen”. It is about males pretending to be trans to access women and girls.

Please note that if we suddenly start to have a discussion and these threads are posted, this thread will be moved to FWR and hidden.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I have already promised to read the BMN board, obviously without posting. I will head over there. If anyone has a thread I should read, do post a link.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 19/04/2022 19:41

Another think that happens in FWR is that a new poster shows up, posts something horrid (transphobic, racist, etc) and then take screen shots of it on Twitter to show how awful women there are.

If you try to warn other posters you are “troll hunting” and may get deleted/banned. If you interact, you are down at their level, if you ignore it, you are obviously in league with it Sad.

I care deeply about vulnerable women and girls. I also care deeply about fighting racism. And I care about disabled facilities as one of my core family members is disabled. These are not mutually exclusive concerns. Women can join together and help each other.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2022 19:44

I'm really quite optimistic for feminism.

In the 90's and early 00's there wasn't much at all in the way of feminism in the UK. Instead we had 'girl power' and 'ladettes', sex positivity and ironic rape joke t-shirts. Academia talked about 'postfeminism' as if all the work was done and changed women's studies departments to gender studies or queer studies, and almost nobody was speaking up. Nobody wanted to be associated with feminism. It was a hedonistic time and feminists were such fun sponges.

Then we had the third wavers who thought they could accommodate all that male-centric hedonism and still somehow stand up for women. All they achieved was to convince a lot of young women and girls that pandering to dick was 'empowering' (compare and contrast 'empowering' with actually having power).

Over the past 10 years or so it has been heartening to see a new, vibrant, enthusiastic, grass-roots feminist movement forming and growing rapidly. It has been kick-started by the reaction to TRA but there are many many women who first came to this because of e.g. concerns about child safeguarding or freedom of speech and have discovered feminism and all the other battles we are still fighting. Every day more of us are speaking up, every day we get louder. It's a huge silver lining to the current shitshow.

I honestly think the UK feminist movement is in a better state now than it has been at any point since the 70's. It's not perfect, there are lots of things we could do better, there's lots of internal disagreement, but you know, women are human, with all the messiness that involves. I imagine the 2nd wave was messy and fraught too but goodness me, those women achieved a lot!

I can recommend Filia to anyone who is feeling despondent.

www.filia.org.uk/

Doubletoilandtrouble · 19/04/2022 19:46

Go to recent FWR threads. Find a comment that is truly awful (I love being right wing, racism isn’t bad, I like at least one black comedian etc) and do an advance search. The poster will have only those posts or maybe 1-2 more.

VestofAbsurdity · 19/04/2022 20:53

Did it ever occur to you or VestofAbsurdity that some of us on this thread may be silent because we have no idea what you are talking about with the specific things and threads you have mentioned hence not responding?

Hmm, no, I don't buy it. I know that threads started on these topics on the main boards such as AIBU and Chat get shifted off into MN FWR as quick as lightening , who do you think reports and requests that happens do you suppose and why? Considering that trans rights 'feminists' have declared MN FWR a no go zone and have agitated for it to be shut down does that give you clue?

Regardless of that happening on this site are you telling me you've never read anywhere online, on social media or in MSM about the online abuse of women who disagree with the TRA Agenda? You've not read or heard anything about male rapists being incarcerated in the female prison estate with the inevitable consequences of that which led to a Judicial Review of the MoJ's policy on this? You've never read or heard anything about the WiSpa incident? You've never read or heard anything about the court cases brought by women on the receiving end of TRA abuse like Raquel Rosario Sanchez? You've not read or heard anything about the abuse meted out to the TRA'S favourite hate figure J K Rowling who has received so many rape and death threats she could paper the walls of her entire house with them? Really? I don't believe you, all the incidents I have referenced, and many more besides, have been widely reported outside of MN.

thedancingbear · 19/04/2022 21:00

You know what, I’m going to do a little experiment. I’ve read the OP but not the rest of the thread, though I can see it’s a few hundred posts long. The OP says absolutely nothing about trans people. But I’m 100% certain that, when I scroll to the last page, it will have been turned into a trans row by the usual suspects. If it doesn’t, I’m going to look a right dick, aren’t I?

thedancingbear · 19/04/2022 21:01

Yep. There was never any doubt, was there?

AlisonDonut · 19/04/2022 21:04

@thedancingbear

You know what, I’m going to do a little experiment. I’ve read the OP but not the rest of the thread, though I can see it’s a few hundred posts long. The OP says absolutely nothing about trans people. But I’m 100% certain that, when I scroll to the last page, it will have been turned into a trans row by the usual suspects. If it doesn’t, I’m going to look a right dick, aren’t I?
Who are 'the usual suspects'?
Florenz · 19/04/2022 21:07

The "trans row" is by far the biggest issue facing all women today. Probably the biggest threat to women in the history of mankind to be perfectly honest. Nothing else has ever attempted to deny women their right to exist.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2022 21:10

@Doubletoilandtrouble

Go to recent FWR threads. Find a comment that is truly awful (I love being right wing, racism isn’t bad, I like at least one black comedian etc) and do an advance search. The poster will have only those posts or maybe 1-2 more.
Yup.

FWR has never been a protected feminist space.

We have always been expected to entertain all viewpoints on that board in good faith, as long as they are within the talk guidelines. Even moreso since the board was split. 'Sex and Gender Discussion' was originally called 'Sex and Gender Debate' until women pointed out that a lot of us, most notably transwidows, need that board for support and calling it 'debate' would seriously endanger that.

But MNHQ are strongly committed to hosting 'both sides' on a board called feminism and have made special rules to accommodate the tra which we all have to abide by.

We are not allowed to tell any poster that they are not welcome on FWR, or on any particular thread. There are words we can't say and there are topics we can't talk about unless we use extremely convoluted language and walk a tightrope between not generalising and not being personal (about anybody, not just MN posters).

Experience has taught us that 9 times out of 10 truly awful comments are posted by goady fuckers whose aim is to rile us up to the point where we break talk guidelines ourselves, or to harvest screenshots for twitter.

MNHQ have invited people from twitter, who are not even members of this site, to report FWR posts that they find offensive. Women have been deleted and banned because of reports from twitter.

Experience has taught us that generally the most constructive thing to do under these restrictions is to scroll straight past the shitposts and continue engaging with genuine posters. That way the board remains somewhat useful, despite its problems.

TL;DR - Just because something is left to stand without challenge on FWR doesn't mean we all think it's fine.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2022 21:13

@thedancingbear

You know what, I’m going to do a little experiment. I’ve read the OP but not the rest of the thread, though I can see it’s a few hundred posts long. The OP says absolutely nothing about trans people. But I’m 100% certain that, when I scroll to the last page, it will have been turned into a trans row by the usual suspects. If it doesn’t, I’m going to look a right dick, aren’t I?
And every time it's brought up by posters who jump on to say what's wrong with MN feminism.

They could just stop it.

thedancingbear · 19/04/2022 21:20

@LangClegsInSpace, what does the very first reply following the OP say?

It’s not people complaining that the focus on the FWR boards is anti-trans that is causing the FWR boards to be anti-trans discussion. That’s the most tortuous thing I’ve ever heard.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2022 21:27

@thedancingbear There are two FRW boards. Have you ever posted on the one that is not to do with 'sex and gender discussion'? I can't see where you have.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 19/04/2022 21:29

@thedancingbear I assume you have looked at that first post, searched the poster and established a long posting history, especially on FWR…? Oh wait…

phoenixrosehere · 19/04/2022 21:31

*Hmm, no, I don't buy it. I know that threads started on these topics on the main boards such as AIBU and Chat get shifted off into MN FWR as quick as lightening , who do you think reports and requests that happens do you suppose and why? Considering that trans rights 'feminists' have declared MN FWR a no go zone and have agitated for it to be shut down does that give you clue?

Regardless of that happening on this site are you telling me you've never read anywhere online, on social media or in MSM about the online abuse of women who disagree with the TRA Agenda? You've not read or heard anything about male rapists being incarcerated in the female prison estate with the inevitable consequences of that which led to a Judicial Review of the MoJ's policy on this? You've never read or heard anything about the WiSpa incident? You've never read or heard anything about the court cases brought by women on the receiving end of TRA abuse like Raquel Rosario Sanchez? You've not read or heard anything about the abuse meted out to the TRA'S favourite hate figure J K Rowling who has received so many rape and death threats she could paper the walls of her entire house with them? Really? I don't believe you, all the incidents I have referenced, and many more besides, have been widely reported outside of MN.*

Not my issue that you don’t believe me or don’t buy it and you trying to call me a liar is uncalled for. The only thing I have heard about is the JK Rowling thing and I definitely don’t agree with anyone regardless of their beliefs should be threatened with violence. I have also always known of mostly women always receiving online abuse and threats way before anything to do with trans became mainstream.

Maybe you should have a look at the feminists chats and search for my username and see the last time I actually posted on any since you don’t buy it. I didn’t even know there were two separate feminist chats until someone mentioned in and you can look back and see it in this thread.

thedancingbear · 19/04/2022 21:32

[quote LangClegsInSpace]@thedancingbear There are two FRW boards. Have you ever posted on the one that is not to do with 'sex and gender discussion'? I can't see where you have.[/quote]
Cracking ad hominem.

I’ve posted on all kinds of women’s rights issues on these boards. I stay away from the FWR boards because they tend to be toxic and dominated by a single issue.

Others sad enough to interrogate my posting history are free to do so. They will find no evidence to suggest I’m a TRA (which is what I presume you’re angling at)

TooBigForMyBoots · 19/04/2022 21:38

So why is it ok to say that we (those that believe that males and females are two completely different sexes) are also Trump supporters because he (potentially) believes that males and females are two completely different sexes?*

It isn't. Which is why I didn't say it. I used it to demonstrate the absurdity of @VestofAbsurdity's argument. Sharing an opinion with an arsehole does not mean that you agree with everything they say or condone the shitty things they do.

TheHateIsNotGood · 19/04/2022 21:45

It all went a bit backwards with the Spice Girls OP. Nothing against them personally, as they were 'entertaining', but somehow 'independent female' got bound up in a 'sexy presentation' and eventually evolved into 'work-based' rights, HR Depts, etc as it's current manifestation.

IMO

phoenixrosehere · 19/04/2022 21:46

@VestofAbsurdity

Also, did you ever consider that since you know more about this subject and click on various topics dealing with it that your algorithm presents you with more of this information?

When the JKR thing came out, I saw it on Facebook and scrolled past it because it was something to do with Twitter which I haven’t been on in years and don’t think that highly of it and part of the reason is the amount of abuse and threats that are allowed among other things.

LangClegsInSpace · 19/04/2022 21:46

I’ve posted on all kinds of women’s rights issues on these boards. I stay away from the FWR boards because they tend to be toxic and dominated by a single issue

A whole new board was created for posters like you who said they wanted to talk about feminism without it being dominated by gender politics issues!

Here it is:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism

There are some good discussions there but I must say it's strangely quiet, given the apparent demand.

AlisonDonut · 19/04/2022 21:49

[quote thedancingbear]@LangClegsInSpace, what does the very first reply following the OP say?

It’s not people complaining that the focus on the FWR boards is anti-trans that is causing the FWR boards to be anti-trans discussion. That’s the most tortuous thing I’ve ever heard.[/quote]
If pro-women is anti-trans, then are we to assume that 'pro-trans' is 'anti-woman'; in which case, FWR is the perfect place to discuss this?