To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

user1471504747

Here's the graphic so you can have the exact figures.

Thank you Purgatory that’s incredibly helpful. I’d love to say it’s a great information sheet but it’s not. It’s fucking devastating

When it comes to issues about prisons I tend to look to women who've been incarcerated or have had friends or family incarcerated or have long been involved in the prison system. So Julie Bindel or Rhona Hotchkiss, for example, or the women working to support others in Yarl's Wood.

What is it you recommend doing to help women in prison, user147?

@user1471504747

Thank you for your post on women’s prisons - which does a really good job of highlighting the perils of focussing solely on perceived ‘universal’ concerns over those which are more specific to a particular group.

Hands up, I have never truly informed myself on many of the issues facing women in prison. I will now do so.

I'm with WP:UK and the position of their seminar: a Woman's Place is NOT in Prison.

It doesn't even make sense financially, never mind on humanitarian grounds- the cost of putting an single mother (who has a 31% chance of being a care-leaver herself) in prison for a non-violent offence and putting her children in foster care (thus whacking up their chances of a prison sentence in adulthood) is astronomical.

It would be cheaper to send the kids to Eton and pay for her to do a uni degree.

@DomesticatedZombie

When it comes to issues about prisons I tend to look to women who've been incarcerated or have had friends or family incarcerated or have long been involved in the prison system. So Julie Bindel or Rhona Hotchkiss, for example, or the women working to support others in Yarl's Wood.

What is it you recommend doing to help women in prison, user147?

I don’t want to put specific organisations as they’re very local and therefore outing, although I can imagine you might be able to find similar very near you.

There’s an organisation that helps female prisoners learn transferable skills while in prison, and then helps them find jobs and organise interviews on the outside.

More generally, charities that can help stop the cycle. So anything to do with domestic violence, care leavers, drug abuse, are usually good places to start.

Unfortunately my local MP is a torytwatpot but that doesn’t stop me writing letters to him. Usually get some sort of automated response but worth a try all the same.

Oddly enough also joining in campaigns related to scrapping the tv license.

[quote EyePeeEh]@user1471504747

Thank you for your post on women’s prisons - which does a really good job of highlighting the perils of focussing solely on perceived ‘universal’ concerns over those which are more specific to a particular group.

Hands up, I have never truly informed myself on many of the issues facing women in prison. I will now do so.[/quote]
This was a goady thread that ended up being a thread of resources.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4356627-Womens-Wellbeing-in-Prisons?pg=2

This is a more recent thread that won't be linked there

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4516312-Guardian-article-highlighting-pregnant-women-in-prison

Also, you can listen to the speeches from the WP:UK A Woman's Place Is Not in Prison meeting on youtube

Thank you, will watch that now.

There were a lot of speeches, so you'll need to keep putting the keywords in after each speech and scrolling down past the results you've seen.

Thanks for the links/tips, wims.

When feeling despondent I find taking action is a good salve.

They support the TRA/Gender Ideology Agenda, attacking women online who don't or who are campaigning about FGM is part and parcel of the aims of that agenda.

Who @VestofAbsurdity? Who on this thread has said anything like that?

There were a lot of speeches, so you'll need to keep putting the keywords in after each speech and scrolling down past the results you've seen.
Yes I’ll look through some of the others that aren’t transgender-issues specific. Thank you generally for the resources though.

@TooBigForMyBoots

They support the TRA/Gender Ideology Agenda, attacking women online who don't or who are campaigning about FGM is part and parcel of the aims of that agenda.

Who @VestofAbsurdity? Who on this thread has said anything like that?

Oh gods and small fishes. People recognise usernames of people they've argued with before, and no this is not exclusively a feminism thing. If you make yourself known for one position or another in a subforum, but don't turn up on certain threads to condemn the excesses discussed therein, people will reach certain conclusions about you.

This is like the benefit threads where people took offence that they had become known as people who would rather see children starve than pay a penny more tax each year. None of us can control other people's perceptions and it's wise not to try.

ExMachinaDeus

I think the next big battle for women and varieties of feminism is that we get a recognition that the workplace & social organisations shouldnotbe organised around the male as the default human. And that being a woman or girl should not be regarded as lesser, a weakness, or shameful, or anything else like that.

This. I would like to see more accommodation of menstruation. For all the talk about period poverty, I don't think throwing two packs of bodyform at a girl will solve the issue of whether she actually can rely on getting a toilet pass to get to the toilet in time.

Things are very much arranged around the male default.

@EyePeeEh

There were a lot of speeches, so you'll need to keep putting the keywords in after each speech and scrolling down past the results you've seen. Yes I’ll look through some of the others that aren’t transgender-issues specific. Thank you generally for the resources though.

Completely fair enough.

I picked the first woman in the roll that I remembered as having spoken from the perspective on being an ex-prisoner. IIRC, she speaks about male guards doing searches on incarcerated women.

I think we should make the women's estate entirely single sex.

Just caught up with all the posts.

One thing that has struck me on this thread is that there are so many feminist issues that don’t get coverage. It’s been eye-opening for me and I’m grateful.

And I realise it’s frustrating that the trans issue gets loads of focus when it seems as if those affected are currently small in number. But I think the thing is that lots of the other problems are issues of attitude or very incremental changes that chip away at our freedoms and safety, whereas the proposals for self ID are big, clear, in-your-face statements; they are saying ‘We are taking your rights’ and it seems so ludicrously, black-and-white, hands-down unfair and anti-women that it’s not like the other problems. That’s my take on it anyway.

@phoenixrosehere

It was poster JoyLurking9to5 who decided that BMN were only focused on themselves and ridiculing them over their lack of involvement with trans issues.

I definitely did not ''decide'' that. Never ridiculed anybody.

Boy. Never let the truth get in the way.

I think someone here posted about women’s health. That is something else that is completely outrageous.

theconversation.com/amp/gender-bias-in-medicine-and-medical-research-is-still-putting-womens-health-at-risk-156495

The article above is quite good. It outlines how medications not are tested on women (sooo annoying with monthly hormones impacting) and how 8 out of 10 medications withdrawn in the US was because of side effects exclusively found in women .

Women also tend to be diagnosed with cardiovascular issues later, are more prone to autoimmune disorders, etc, etc, etc.

Are these problems smaller than the issues facing black women (double whammy of racism and sexism) and the rape/trafficking of Ukrainian women? Well of course they are. But it doesn’t mean that we should stay quiet about them.

We need to shout about all these issues, laud and clear. And some women focus on some issues and some women focus on other issues. I really want this world to be a better place for my daughter.

@JoyLurking9to5

JoyLurking9to5
Me too, and as well as the trans issue confusions, some (not all?) black women seem to reject feminism as being offensive to them because it is not specifically aimed at black women. As if the issues aren't common to all women. As if financial dependency, lack of affordable childcare, a benefit structure that supports mothers/single mothers/furthering education to increase earning potential are things that are bad for women if they arent white.
Really shocking. The thread about "karens karening" was so depressing.

sorry, I must have misread this.

I agree OP, following reading this thread through, I have been off reading a few different topics which used to be my main priorities, other than my now go to self-ID concerns. It’s been a good reminder and I am grateful for the space for a robust discussion.

I do feel though that the erosion of womens rights is fundamental to so many feminist issues. For example, now transwomen are included in the female crime stats, what we understand about crime is changing. In the future will we educate social workers, police etc that sexual assault, domestic abuse etc is no longer overwhelmingly perpetrated by males? How do we risk assess when we don’t have accurate data to profile offenders and predict recidivism? I respect the request not to focus the thread on this but more wish to make the point that for some feminists, this issue strikes at the heart of so many feminist concerns and can’t be separated from them.

I agree OP, it’s hideous and this government aren’t doing a thing about it.

This has some great and extremely depressing links about violence towards women (including domestic violence and pornography).

www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/about/data-on-violence-against-women-and-girls/

The government aren't spending money, time or energy making anything better for women. They're sowing discontent amongst women online.

Cheaper, more effective and women are fall for it time after time.🤷‍♀️

@VestofAbsurdity

More often than not those trans allies are only to happy to join in the abuse and denigration.

No one on this thread has said they don't care about FGM or online abuse of women. No one on this thread has chanted TWAW.

What's going on with that @VestofAbsurdity?

Barrawarra, absolutely. I already see moves to not use terms like 'male violence' and to shift the conversation to 'gendered violence'. If we can't name the problem clearly how can we ever hope to address it?