You can’t do naughty step or timeout with some kids

[Twentysplenty]

AIBU or is it impossible with some kids? My 4 year old is too heavy for me to carry and if I do manage to carry him to naughty step or his bedroom he just cries and screams and just runs back at me again clinging to my legs. If I tell him NAUGHTY STEP NOW. He refuses.

Please tell me IABU and naughty step/timeout IS possible, and how to do that with a child who just refuses.

(It makes it worse that usually my 1 year old will be sleeping and I don’t want 4 year olds screaming to wake the baby).

I’ve been reading peoples comments about how gentle parenting doesn’t work and kids need boundaries but how do you actually enforce those boundaries? My son screamed at me yesterday as loud as he could for turning the tv off so I said naughty step and he refused. What am I meant to do?

Can you let him stay where he is and reframe it as 'quiet time' so remove all the toys etc from around him and leave the room yourself?

I've heard of some people using a small mat/rug as the time out spot. You move it to the child, stand by the child whilst on the rug, but do not interact at all for the time out period. If child moves, you are close enough to put back immediately.

It really only takes a short period of consistency for the child to get the message. Even if they won't stay still to start with, tell them they are in time out while they have a think about what they have done wrong, stay close and don't interact during that period.

You are right.

Based on my kids... they behavior was worse when they were tired, hungry or thirsty. If they are upset, they need to be calmed down before you can address what they've done wrong. Time out can be good for that... but sometimes they need you with them to help them calm down.

I'm not saying bad behavior should be awarded or ignored, but understanding is needed too.

Another reason can be to get attention which can be trickier to deal with...

@girlmom21 yes I tried that. Because he was screaming I said I couldn’t be around him as I didn’t want to hear that noise so I shut the french doors. He then just hit them as hard as he could whilst still screaming.

@girlmom21

Can you let him stay where he is and reframe it as 'quiet time' so remove all the toys etc from around him and leave the room yourself?

I think this is probably preferable. With some kids you cannot do naughty step without manhandling them or having a confrontation which massively escalates things.

I wouldn’t take random mumsnetter comments about how “gentle parenting doesn’t work” too seriously.

The alleged purpose of time out, sitting and thinking about what you’ve done, demonstrably is not how it’s actually experienced by small children. It’s experienced as withdrawal of attention as punishment. Not sure why anyone would expect it to be a magic solution.

It’s really hard when you’ve got a baby at risk of waking up, I have the same frustrating situation right now. I’m my view, though, turning the TV off is you holding a firm boundary. Him screaming is him expressing his negative emotion in response to that, it’s legitimate for him to be upset or angry and it’s your job to let him no it’s ok for him to feel that way, but you are the grown up and you decide whether the TV is on.

@Twentysplenty

I’ve been reading peoples comments about how gentle parenting doesn’t work and kids need boundaries but how do you actually enforce those boundaries? My son screamed at me yesterday as loud as he could for turning the tv off so I said naughty step and he refused. What am I meant to do?

Was the time out to punish him for screaming? I used to do this until my mum told me that children should be allowed the right to cry and express their upset about a punishment. It’s the least they should be allowed for being punished! If he’s screaming best thing to do is not to give him attention and continue to hold the boundary (no TV) calmly and firmly.

What I find sometimes works when my child is screaming is to change my voice to a stage whisper. They then think it’s a game and have to be quiet to hear what I’m saying and then will mirror my voice levels.

Once they’re already upset, I find that time outs don’t work for my kids and they just revert to babyish neediness, so my new strategy is focusing on managing their expectations, tiredness and hunger levels so they don’t completely lose control. Once they lose control I leave them to calm down if I can’t humour them out of the tantrum, and then we talk about their behaviour once they are calm again.

I think practically, I’d be telling him it’s ok to be angry at you, and then trying to distract and diffuse with suggestions for what he can do. Really, really hard with a sleeping baby but punishing an expression of anger is unlikely to actually help in that regard either.

I am sure you can't with some kids. But I expect you probably could with yours, but you might need to approach it a different way.

I read a book called 123 magic and follow its approach. If my child is doing something I want them to stop, I say that's a 1. If they carry on, that's a 2. If they carry on, that's a 3, they can go to their room to calm down. 1 minute per year of age. Bearing in mind I have a 7yo, I cannot pick her up. If she doesn't go, she basically gets ignored until she does. No interaction. No reaction. I do not engage in arguing or debate. Usually she huffs and puffs then goes. Her 7 mins doesn't start until she's in her room. I don't mind what she does when she's in her room. But if she's kicking off, her time doesn't start until she's calmed down. I don't Bill this as a punishment. It's time to calm down. When she comes out it's done, clean slate, we don't need to go on about it. But if she starts up again within 20 mins she goes straight to a 3 and back in for another 7 mins. I also have a 4yo, 5 next month, I absolutely do carry him up to his room kicking and screaming on occasion. But again I tend to wait him out, like I do the 7yo. I've also had to repeatedly return child to room when they won't stay there.

We had a 'family meeting' before implementing this approach, so the kids knew the rules! Both dh and I have found it really useful in helping us to keep our cool. The best thing is when I say 'Dd, that's a 1', nothing else, and she stops whatever silliness she was engaged in.

The 123 magic book is 50% about the flip side of this. Time out is only for if the child is doing something you want them to stop. There are millions of things that you want them to do though, like put their shoes on. So the book also covers how to engage cooperation. I also liked how to talk so little kids will listen for this side of things.

I've had to read these books because my Dd7 is quite a challenge! So I'm not saying it's easy. You'll have rebellion at first! But stay calm and stick with it. I think it's worth it.

Naughty step never worked for my kid. Or any of Super Nanny's techniques. Look up Janet Lansbury's page on Facebook, much better strategies. My child is highly sensitive and gets over stimulated if I shout so we use gentler ways of handling things. It's made for a much more peaceful household and my son behaves better too. He needs help regulating his emotions first, then we deal with talking about the behaviour. If he's dysregulated, there is zero point in punishing or explaining anything. We still have boundaries, they are just done in a calm way and his emotions around them accepted.

Reading The Highly Sensitive Child by Elaine Aron was our first game changer when our son was 4 and really difficult. He used to hit me, a lot. I took him to another room, he'd whack me again but I wouldn't react. I'd ask if he needed a cuddle, he'd melt into my arms and then we'd deal with saying sorry etc once he'd calm down. We had 3 or 4 more incidents of hitting, I responded exactly like this each time and then it's never happened again. It went against everything I thought I should do, like I was rewarding his hitting with a cuddle. But really, it was providing a safe place for his big emotions.

Keeping myself calm has been key, and hard to master as I find it so hard when he kicks off. I still shout sometimes but I mostly keep things calm.

I never did it. It is weird imo. Fine, have a few minutes to calm down, but young kids need connection. It's perfectly possible to bring them up to be considerate, kind and thoughtful without that bullshit

There’s nothing magic about the step OP. Timeouts/naughty step do three things; it gets the child away from whatever is causing the unacceptable behavior (fight with sibling, tablet, chocolate eggs…); it’s a simple way of indicating to the child that the behavior is unacceptable and you’re unhappy with them because of that behavior; and finally it’s a place for them to calm down after the inevitable upset of being prevented from doing whatever it was they were doing + making you angry/upset.
If the naughty step isn’t working for you you can create the same three aspects in other ways. If a toy/food/tablet is an issue you can remove that rather than the child. With a sibling fight you can take/send the other child out of the room instead (not necessarily as a punishment, just as a way of separating them - could be ´darling it’s time for your shower now, don’t worry about little brother biting you, I am dealing with it. You go and relax and get ready for bed.’
You can do a sticker chart or marble jar or a traffic light indicator or whatever as a visible physical indication that the behavior is unacceptable.
If you can’t physically move the child and they have a tantrum then you can just leave them where they are to calm down. You can give them a specific pillow to hit if they tend to destroy things while tantrumming, or their favourite cuddly toy if that’s something that works for them.

@BingBangB0ng

I think practically, I’d be telling him it’s ok to be angry at you, and then trying to distract and diffuse with suggestions for what he can do. Really, really hard with a sleeping baby but punishing an expression of anger is unlikely to actually help in that regard either.

But it's not ok to be angry at her for turning the tv off...

Thanks everyone for input. I turned the tv off as it was dinner time. He eventually came and sat down but refused to eat it. I said that’s fine, eat as much of it or as little as you want (I’m not pandering to his fussy eating) and so he started blowing spit bubbles out his mouth and grinning looking at me for a reaction. That’s when I exploded in rage shouting he was being disgusting and my shouting made him cry and then I ended up crying as I was so upset (I’m quite ill at the moment and tired so low tolerance). I don’t know how I could have done this differently. What would you all have done in this situation with the spitting?

@Twentysplenty I'd have told him spitting is disgusting and to please leave the table if he's not going to eat nicely.

@Twentysplenty

I’ve been reading peoples comments about how gentle parenting doesn’t work and kids need boundaries but how do you actually enforce those boundaries? My son screamed at me yesterday as loud as he could for turning the tv off so I said naughty step and he refused. What am I meant to do?

I would have said if you scream at me then I won’t want to be around that noise and I will walk away.

Personally I’ve never done the naughty step. After DD2 was born and DD1 was being difficult I used sitting in where DD1 would not be able to play and she would have to just sit next to me.

I agree with all the PP as well though, I don't think being a responsive parent and using time outs as a backstop are mutually exclusive. Jumping straight to a time out is not how a child learns.

I’ve never done it for any of mine, I can’t see how it would have helped 🤷🏻‍♀️. If they’re misbehaving it’s generally because they’re hungry, tired or bored. Better to deal with the actual issue than leave them screaming on a step for 10 mins. How many young children will actually sit and reflect on what they’ve done wrong?
And at 8 and 6 my older two are excellently behaved. The younger one (ASD) struggles when he’s tired and overwhelmed but sitting him on a step wouldn’t help.

[quote girlmom21]@Twentysplenty I'd have told him spitting is disgusting and to please leave the table if he's not going to eat nicely. [/quote]
Yes you’re right. This is what I should have done, I got so angry at him though for it.

@Twentysplenty

Thanks everyone for input. I turned the tv off as it was dinner time. He eventually came and sat down but refused to eat it. I said that’s fine, eat as much of it or as little as you want (I’m not pandering to his fussy eating) and so he started blowing spit bubbles out his mouth and grinning looking at me for a reaction. That’s when I exploded in rage shouting he was being disgusting and my shouting made him cry and then I ended up crying as I was so upset (I’m quite ill at the moment and tired so low tolerance). I don’t know how I could have done this differently. What would you all have done in this situation with the spitting?

I would have said spitting isn’t nice and then talked to the baby about how they are behaving nicely and as soon as he was showing any sign of behaving properly praised him. He is looking for attention so give him lots of attention for positive behaviour.

Oh! Just read your update. There’s no point punishing him for reacting to something he wants being taken away. You can try to direct that emotion into a different form instead. - Try giving him a cushion or soft toy to hit/kick/bite.

@Twentysplenty

I’ve been reading peoples comments about how gentle parenting doesn’t work and kids need boundaries but how do you actually enforce those boundaries? My son screamed at me yesterday as loud as he could for turning the tv off so I said naughty step and he refused. What am I meant to do?

Had you given him warning that the TV was going off? For similar occasions - like leaving the park, or packing up toys at bed time, I would always say right you have 10 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins - right time to pack up now. That helped.

I wouldn't have given instant time out for screaming if there had been no previous warnings. Either I would have said if he didn't stop by the time I had counted to 3 there would be a time out and then a slow count down, or I would have tried to distract. Acknowledge that he is upset TV has gone off, but silly to be making such a fuss and let's play lego/go for walk/ run in the garden/help with the laundry etc.

Sometimes you do get angry. You were unwell. He was kicking off and intentionally pushing you to see how far he could go. He's learning to test boundaries and sometimes it gets too much.

We'd all like to say we're brilliant parents and get it right every time but we just don't.

It's much easier to say what we would have, could have or should have done in hindsight. It's not easy to do the 'right' thing every single time in reality.

With the spitting I’d have taken the food away and ignored the child.
Turn your back, wipe a counter, make a coffee, count the cups in the cupboard. Just ignore. ( I’m a bit hard, children crying has no effect on me —- different story when a. It’s your child and b. You’re not well)