You can’t do naughty step or timeout with some kids

[Twentysplenty]

AIBU or is it impossible with some kids? My 4 year old is too heavy for me to carry and if I do manage to carry him to naughty step or his bedroom he just cries and screams and just runs back at me again clinging to my legs. If I tell him NAUGHTY STEP NOW. He refuses.

Please tell me IABU and naughty step/timeout IS possible, and how to do that with a child who just refuses.

(It makes it worse that usually my 1 year old will be sleeping and I don’t want 4 year olds screaming to wake the baby).

@girlmom21 I really disagree with this. Of course it’s ok to be angry if something you were enjoying is taken away from you. It doesn’t mean his mum should switch it back on, but his emotion is perfectly legitimate and he’s entitled to it. He’s 4 ffs

Gentle parenting doesn't mean "passive parenting" !

@Seeline no you’re right. I didn’t give him any warning the tv was going off and because I’ve been so ill it had been on all day so I guess it’s understandable how angry he was. I don’t think it’s ok for him to scream at me like that.

Did you pre warn him that you’d be turning the tv off. Like, in ten minutes (or when this show is finished) we’ll be turning the tv off as it’s time for dinner. Or did you just walk in and turn it off?

[quote BingBangB0ng]@girlmom21 I really disagree with this. Of course it’s ok to be angry if something you were enjoying is taken away from you. It doesn’t mean his mum should switch it back on, but his emotion is perfectly legitimate and he’s entitled to it. He’s 4 ffs[/quote]
It's not ok to be angry. It's ok to be upset but anger isn't a healthy response to the tv being turned off because it's dinner time.

People use the age excuse all the time on Mumsnet. The other day another poster was told she shouldn't punish her child or attacking another child because she was only 2. It's absurd. What point do you start teaching them how to behave at?

@girlmom21 I also certainly would not punish a 2-year-old so I think we just have irreconcilable differences here.

spitting is revolting, especially around food. I'm not surprised you flipped.
Warning first, and then time out. Doesn't have to be a step, could be a room (if you have a spare room, or utility room, basically somewhere really, really boring), that way you don't have to carry, lead by the hand, or arm. Waking the baby is occupational hazard I'm afraid, this behaviour needs nipping in the bud.

@girlmom21
Yes, it’s ok to be angry at mum for turning the tv off. But there are acceptable and unacceptable ways of expressing that anger. Hitting etc is obviously unacceptable. Screaming loud enough to wake the baby is pushing it.
Once a kid is tantrumming, there is no point whatsoever in punishing them for that tantrum. It’s probably more effective to just ignore the tantrum rather to try to get them to stop. They are fully not in control of their actions at that point. 4 year olds take time to calm down once they hit that emotional boiling point. Obviously that doesn’t mean you should let them hurt anyone else or destroy your things while they are tantrumming, but if they’ve just shouting and crying and hitting the floor then just leave them to it.

@Twentysplenty sorry cross post.

The way I look at it, if I was in the middle of watching something and my DH walked into the room and switched the tv off, I’d be furious! I wouldn’t scream at him, but then I’ve got a better handle on my emotions because I’m not 4.

Alway prep, and use a timer if needed. It makes transitions much easier.

Same goes for the time out really: if I was really upset about something and my Dh sent me away to another place on my own to think about it, I’d be even more upset. I don’t see how it can work long term.

People use the age excuse all the time on Mumsnet

Age isn’t an excuse. It’s a reason. A 4 year old doesn’t have a fully matured brain… they cannot behave in the same way as adults. This isn’t their fault, it’s simple biology.
Yes, the behaviour needs addressing. But you shouldn’t ‘punish’ a child for feeling an emotion.

I'll possibly get slated for this but...my eldest was fine with the naughty step no issues but my second child was a very different ball game!!!

I used to put her on the step but she just would not stay put and found it a game. So I'd sit right in front of her facing her but with any eyes contact or communication. If she tried to get up I'd hold the tops of her arms and put my elbows at the side of her thighs. I would never ever hurt her but we just needed to break the cycle of knowing that she needed to do as she was told. She's now the most gentle, thoughtful, funny, confident 13 year old ever but if I'd have let her run riot then she would have gladly obliged!! My advice is to also keep to the timings, 1 minute per year is plenty. Good luck!!

@ReadyToMoveIt

People use the age excuse all the time on Mumsnet

Age isn’t an excuse. It’s a reason. A 4 year old doesn’t have a fully matured brain… they cannot behave in the same way as adults. This isn’t their fault, it’s simple biology.
Yes, the behaviour needs addressing. But you shouldn’t ‘punish’ a child for feeling an emotion.

No you don't punish the child for the emotion. You don't even have to punish them for the way they display that emotion. But if the behaviour they use to display that emotion is unacceptable that's something we need to teach them.

Yes be upset. No don't scream and shout and hit things.

I don’t think the naughty step works in many scenarios because the child is beyond the point of reason when it is used. An overwhelmed four year old (whether upset, angry, or even overexcited) can’t really regulate their emotions that well or take on board lessons on behaviour.

I agree with PP that a calm down area could be a better option. Maybe with some fidget or sensory toys and you close at hand. Once they are calm they are more likely to understand when you explain what they did wrong and how they can manage whatever happened better in the future.

[quote Twentysplenty]@girlmom21 yes I tried that. Because he was screaming I said I couldn’t be around him as I didn’t want to hear that noise so I shut the french doors. He then just hit them as hard as he could whilst still screaming.[/quote]
I'm not sure telling him you can't be around him is the right approach. Surely that just teaches him that his feelings are enough to drive you away. Even if you're framing it as behaviour rather than feelings, I'm not sure a 4yo can make that distinction easily.

If he's becoming disregulated, reasoning with him in that moment won't work. I think all you can probably do is assure him you're there, and you'll talk about it when he's feeling calmer (and keep him safe if, e.g. he's hitting glass that could conceivably break and injure him).

Then when he has regulated, that is the point to discuss what he was feeling, empathise with whatever it was (it's ok for you to be sad/angry that it was time to turn off the TV but my job is to make sure you get fed/exercise/fresh air/play without screens and it's not OK for you do X even when you're sad and angry because it is unsafe/it scares your baby sibling etc).

You may want to attach a consequence at that point, depending on your approach to parenting. So it might be that you explain that because he behaved in a way that was not acceptable, he now needs to do X or be deprived of Y. My view is that any consequence/punishment should not deprive him of your love or presence - so 'you now have to go to your room for an hour' would be counterproductive. But 'you won't get the iPad this evening and instead you're going to help me in the garden' is productive - because he learns that even in punishment, you are not pushing him away.

[quote BingBangB0ng]@girlmom21 I also certainly would not punish a 2-year-old so I think we just have irreconcilable differences here.[/quote]
I think you're right.

Like I said to the OP earlier we're all just doing our best and hoping it works out ok. I don't know about you but I generally just blag it as I go and it seems to be working so far... hopefully it carries on that way but I'll probably have to switch methods 100 times on the way

Which is exactly what I said @girlmom21. You said ‘it’s not ok to be angry’. Of course it’s ok to be angry. People get angry all the time. I’m sure you get angry. As I said, the child needs to be taught how to deal with that anger. They don’t have those skills yet, due to their age and maturity. Not an excuse, a reason.

@Passtherioja I think my son is the same! He is so defiant and before I had kids I’d have labelled him ‘a spoiled brat’ with the language he uses - DS can you help with the dishwasher please? NO I WONT (stamps foot)!

I mean how on earth do I get him to be a kind obliging child rather than a determined, defiant one? Does it just come with time? Is 4 still too young to expect them to do as they’re told?

I make sure I praise him lots when he is being helpful and kind.

Children use this kind f behaviour to get what they want. You don't appease a badly behaved child and say it's okay to be angry. You teach them boundaries and if they create merry hell then it's off to their rooms for time out (for both of you) to calm down and then sit and talk. Ask them why they behaved like that. Explain why you behaved like that. Talk together about it could have been done differently. You are the parent and you set the boundaries but also this allows your child to feel that they have been heard and part of the solution

I don't think it's just about using a naughty step it's more about not giving in to their demands. Whatever you have said no to you must hold firm no matter how loud they scream. Be confident in enforcing boundaries and don't back down on your rules. I always used to say you can scream all you like your still not having it and walk away.

@ReadyToMoveIt

Which is exactly what I said *@girlmom21*. You said ‘it’s not ok to be angry’. Of course it’s ok to be angry. People get angry all the time. I’m sure you get angry. As I said, the child needs to be taught how to deal with that anger. They don’t have those skills yet, due to their age and maturity. Not an excuse, a reason.

I think you're taking sections from my posts and taking something from them that I haven't suggested.

I said you shouldn't tell the child it's ok to be angry at you then let him crack on.
I said people say "they're only 2/3/4" as a justification for not correcting them. Two separate comments in response to two separate comments from somebody else.

Theres a few good books (available as audio books)
The explosive child
123 magic
I did 'the incredible years' as a zoom course, it was brilliant. You can buy the book or audio book is on audible

I can't get my head around isolating a child as a punishment for what usually turns out to be their lack of ability to co trip their emotions. Work with them, not against them; no 4 year old is going to learn home to resolve their upset/anger if they simply get put into an isolated situation. PPs have worded things re emotion etc much better then I am able to though!

I'm in the minority with this

he started blowing spit bubbles out his mouth and grinning looking at me for a reaction.

At the point where he was fully wound up and refusing to engage other then to blow spit bubbles I would have ignored the spit bubbles. Yes we have to teach them not to do it but that was never going to be the time and when he was looking for a reaction the best thing is not to give it. Teach him that when he calms himself down he gets a reaction and he will learn to calm down much quicker and easier. The 'we don't spit' story is for another time.

@Twentysplenty

Thanks everyone for input. I turned the tv off as it was dinner time. He eventually came and sat down but refused to eat it. I said that’s fine, eat as much of it or as little as you want (I’m not pandering to his fussy eating) and so he started blowing spit bubbles out his mouth and grinning looking at me for a reaction. That’s when I exploded in rage shouting he was being disgusting and my shouting made him cry and then I ended up crying as I was so upset (I’m quite ill at the moment and tired so low tolerance). I don’t know how I could have done this differently. What would you all have done in this situation with the spitting?

I would have removed food from the table then left him sitting there and walked away.

Some of these responses are so sad. He’s only 4. He can’t regulate his emotions yet - something that seems to be so misunderstood in the replies on here. But it’s a basic fact that at that age, they still need us to help them manage and contain their emotions. It’s normal for him to get angry when something that feels so important to him is taken away. But it’s also totally appropriate for adults to hold onto firm boundaries but with kindness. Gentle parenting is about saying no and enforcing boundaries when necessary.

The naughty step and time outs make absolutely no logical sense when you understand the immaturity of children’s brains. They are not sitting there thinking about what they’ve done or how they should behave better next time, they are more likely to be wondering why their love from you is being withdrawn at that point. If it seems to work, it’s superficial because it’s a very ineffective and misunderstood parenting approach.

Thank you. I use 123 magic a lot. It does work but he will often say “what happens when it gets to 3?” And I say timeout! Yet this is my issue, I can’t enforce timeout.