You can’t do naughty step or timeout with some kids

[Twentysplenty]

AIBU or is it impossible with some kids? My 4 year old is too heavy for me to carry and if I do manage to carry him to naughty step or his bedroom he just cries and screams and just runs back at me again clinging to my legs. If I tell him NAUGHTY STEP NOW. He refuses.

Please tell me IABU and naughty step/timeout IS possible, and how to do that with a child who just refuses.

(It makes it worse that usually my 1 year old will be sleeping and I don’t want 4 year olds screaming to wake the baby).

Supernanny

Goodness please don't take your parenting technique from this garbage

Gentle parenting doesn't mean no boundaries.

My child automatically sits on the naughty step after being naughty does his minutes and then gets up. Then repeats the bad behaviour sometimes and goes back. He thinks it's a game. When I pack his toys in a bag to be put away he helps me.

At my wits end.

I don't have a specific answer for you but I do think the trick is to encourage better behaviour by making bad behaviour something that leads to consequences he doesn't like. We had very different strategies for DS and DD as they were very different children.

You have a child that sounds more like DN. A firm, but not shouted, NO seems to work for him followed by a physical removal from a room or situation, if not by him, by the other person. For example, he went through a phase of hitting our DD. Then they'd all cry, SIL would talk to him, he'd apologise, DD would be upset but we'd all say, "it's fine, he didn't mean it, he said sorry" etc. And then he'd do it again. So we agreed, the next time, we'd leave, no matter where and what we were doing. We did. He was upset. His mother was upset. I was the bad guy. But you know what.... he hasn't hit DD a SINGLE time since then.

In your case, when he's doing things like spitting etc, if you tell him no and he won't stop, I would leave the room. Leave him in the other room and go.

Consequences need to be immediate and appropriate. But they differ from child to child.

When my 4 year old refuses to stay she gets a warning followed by a further immediate consequence.

1. Go back to the step please.
2. Go back to the step now please or you will lose X toy for the rest of the day.

We very rarely have to ask her to go to the step.

I'm not trying to perfect parent you here but you asked what people would have done differently so what I would have done is given a one episode warning, then a 5 minute warning that it was nearly dinner time and that means the tv will be going off. Then a 1 minute warning. Then stopped it at the next appropriate point and asked him to do a task like checking if the food was on the table or if I had put forks out (to encourage him to move).

The spitting I'd have said "no thank you. We dont do that in this house." Then I'd have changed the subject to something that interests him. If repeated then "I've told you no thank you once already, if you do that again you will be going on the step". Then step if repeated.

But if step isnt working for you there are plenty of other ways.

It never worked for mine. They just looked at me like wtf and ran away. I used to wonder how it's meant to work - if your child is being difficult and not doing what you want them to, why would they just be good and do it when you tell them to stay on the step?

Pasta jar did work though when toddler-aged - piece of dry pasta in (small) jar as a reward for good behaviour, pasta removed when not so good, full- pasta jar = a small prize like a sticker sheet. Now they're older I've also done removing screens/turning off internet, for a set period or can be earned back by doing chores.

Explanation and reasoning also works well for mine - if they can see why I'm annoyed or don't want a particular behaviour, they often come round and/or suggest a compromise.

Doesn’t need to be the naughty step- can put in his room (put a stair gate on it if he keeps removing himself). A big problem is he prob has realised you hate the screaming for worry of waking the baby, he has you over a barrel on that one.
No the naughty step doesn’t always work, and some kids are way more defiant but you have to implement something that tells him he’s over stepped the mark.

You can’t put a child in a meltdown on a naughty step. They are not in control and they need help and support to calm down.

Re: turning tv off. To avoid a tantrum get them back in the room before turning off. TV messes with their brain chemistry. Ask them gently to tell you what is happening so that they connect with you before explaining that the tv is going off, so they don’t get a sudden slump in endorphins when it goes off - that is what creates the tantrum.

@Twentysplenty

I’ve been reading peoples comments about how gentle parenting doesn’t work and kids need boundaries but how do you actually enforce those boundaries? My son screamed at me yesterday as loud as he could for turning the tv off so I said naughty step and he refused. What am I meant to do?

Some people think that naughty step / time out are unhelpful methods of discipline as they make your love / attention conditional on the child's good behaviour, which could be considered manipulative

I agree children need boundaries, but I think it's best to (1) give advance warning eg "we'll turn tv off in 5 mins" (2) give clear instruction of what you want to happen eg ask him to be quiet, rather than tell him to stop shouting, and (3) talk about actions and consequences. So, the punishment should relate to the crime. Shouting / naughty step doesn't make sense. There's no logical connection. But "we won't watch tv again this afternoon. You shouted and it hurt my ears" might be better

I used to put myself in time out when the climbing on me etc got too much. We had a stair gate.
I found the removal of a treat that they’d been anticipating a better incentive but 4 is a shit age. Eg my DD has loads of Easter eggs I’m very happy to threaten to take one and follow it through
With my 7 year old I’m a massive broken record if I want things done or not done. Eg recently she was hitting me so she was sent upstairs and I am happy to have a stand off which I did

I realise you’re having a tough time and don’t mean to sound judgey, I’ve just got it wrong so many times myself. The naughty step does’ t work unless you’re completely calm yourself, if you do it in temper it just makes the situation spiral. I know, I’ve done it too many times and suffered the consequences!

@Twentysplenty

Thanks everyone for input. I turned the tv off as it was dinner time. He eventually came and sat down but refused to eat it. I said that’s fine, eat as much of it or as little as you want (I’m not pandering to his fussy eating) and so he started blowing spit bubbles out his mouth and grinning looking at me for a reaction. That’s when I exploded in rage shouting he was being disgusting and my shouting made him cry and then I ended up crying as I was so upset (I’m quite ill at the moment and tired so low tolerance). I don’t know how I could have done this differently. What would you all have done in this situation with the spitting?

Sounds like for one reason or another he's learnt to keep upping the ante to get attention.

He knows eventually you'll explode.

My ds was a calm and passive child but turned into a monster if I was ill. Except he didn't really - I just had zero tolerance and he was reacting to me changing my personality. I'm also usually very calm and passive.

In that situation I'd have calmly said "if you don't want dinner that's fine, but that's all that's on offer. So either eat it or leave the table if you're spitting as that's not ok."

If he upped the ante even more I'd have left the room with my meal and eaten elsewhere. Calmly and without any outward emotion.

Honestly the more they up the Nate and you walk away the more they'll get it.

@BingBangB0ng

I wouldn’t take random mumsnetter comments about how “gentle parenting doesn’t work” too seriously.

The alleged purpose of time out, sitting and thinking about what you’ve done, demonstrably is not how it’s actually experienced by small children. It’s experienced as withdrawal of attention as punishment. Not sure why anyone would expect it to be a magic solution.

It’s really hard when you’ve got a baby at risk of waking up, I have the same frustrating situation right now. I’m my view, though, turning the TV off is you holding a firm boundary. Him screaming is him expressing his negative emotion in response to that, it’s legitimate for him to be upset or angry and it’s your job to let him no it’s ok for him to feel that way, but you are the grown up and you decide whether the TV is on.

I cannot agree with this more!! I think it is really important we allow children to express their dissatisfaction, frustration, sadness or whatever emotion they feel when faced with a boundary being set.

DD (2) sobbed and sobbed the other day because I wouldn't let her play with a toy that she had thrown, twice (I gave her a warning first).I put it in a different room and closed the door. She wailed and tried to open the door and pushed against it - I sat on the floor close to her and let her know I was there for her when she was ready for a cuddle, and distracted her. I had already set the boundary and the punishment - I removed the toy. She is allowed to be upset and frustrated by that, and she is allowed to express those feelings as she is able to. If she was ten, I'd be asking why I hadn't equipped my child with the skills to express herself differently, but at 2 I hardly expect her to discuss it with me in depth.

Time out to punish the reaction of the child to
The boundary is surely not what it's meant for?

@itsgettingweird I leave the room all the time when he’s being naughty but he just chases me and grabs onto my legs saying don’t leave mummy don’t leave. It’s exhausting as sometimes I need to get away from him so I don’t lose my rag, but I can’t.

I couldn’t leave when he was spitting as my baby was there too in his highchair.

The naughty step didn’t work with my eldest. We’d end up in a bigger battle to get him to stay there and after a while he’d go and sit there, then merrily carry on…it wasn’t really a punishment in the end.

It sounds like you both had a rubbish day, him no running around to burn off energy, you not feeling well. He lost his temper when you turned the tv off, you lost your temper when he blew bubbles The most effective thing for us when we got to that state is a 10 minute walk outside (or a play in the garden if that is not practical). You’ll all feel reset when you get back in.

Another thing I used to do was instead of saying “come and help with the dishwasher” I’d say “oh where do the spoons go. Do you know?” It takes practice at first but after a while it becomes easier.

Those who don’t believe in timeout/naughty step what do you do when they’re deliberately naughty? For instance he’s taking the baby’s toys off him and I’ve told him to stop doing that, he laughs and does it again! Laying his legs over his baby brothers legs (he’s sat up playing) so he can’t play with the toy underneath his legs. I mean, there needs to be consequence for bad behaviour. It’s not like he is wanting attention as we’ve all been playing together. I’m at a loss how to get him to do as he’s told.

I feel for you, OP. Parenting a 4yo and a baby is challenging, and we're all human - there are none of us getting it right all of the time.

I agree with @Triffid1. Different approaches work with different children, it's never a "one size fits all" solution. Maybe a time out/naughty step type of approach just isn't what works for your DS?

It's been a few years since I've had small DCs, but there's only 13 months between my ds2 and dd2. Ds2 was so sensitive, a mild telling off would leave him devastated. Whereas, even a big telling off would be water off a ducks back for my defiant dd2. I had to adapt my approaches to suit their very different personalities.

Looking back now, I do wish I'd worried a bit less about how I handled these situations. When I had my first, ds1, I was quite young, a single parent with no support or experience. My parenting wasn't great if I'm honest. He's an adult now - very well adjusted, hard working, and an all-round delight (if I do say so myself ).
12 years later, I had my last dc, dd2. I was much more informed, stable in a happy marriage, and had a good support network around me. She's been the most challenging of all, I'm definitely winging it and just getting through it whichever way I can.

You're clearly a loving parent, because you wouldn't be thinking/posting about this if you weren't. That's the most important thing, and I'm pretty certain you won't go far wrong

I did the naughty step a few times when ds was little (he’s now 20), it was everywhere back then.

Only trouble is, he didn’t give a shit. After the first time, he would say “Mummy, I’ve just got water everywhere, I’m going to the step”

And off he would trot and sit there quite happily 🤦🏽‍♀️

So obviously that didn’t last long.

He’s always danced to his own tune. It was hellish when he was a toddler as it came out as defiance. But he mellowed as he got older but still kept the traits - he’s never given into peer pressure, always gone his own way, has always had great confidence in himself and is becoming very successful.

So it does all work out in the end.

In that scenario I’d ask him to stop and distract with another toy. When he does it again I’d say ok you’ll have to move away from us until you can play nicely. Ignore any screaming banging etc but keep an eye on him. Then try again. It’s exhausting!

Following this with interest. What I struggle with is appropriate immediate consequences when, eg my 3yo starts hitting and/or kicking me. If it’s not related to a toy, I can’t take one away. If it’s because he wants the Tv on, I’m not going to switch it on. If it’s because he doesn’t want to go to bed, I’ll take him upstairs but then he’ll be wound up and upset before bedtime. I just don’t know what consequences to use.

After that, with ds I would just distract.

My middle child was just golden and was just an angel, but I have another headstrong one in my 18 month old dd, she’s the carbon copy of her big brother. I just distract her.

@Twentysplenty

I’ve been reading peoples comments about how gentle parenting doesn’t work and kids need boundaries but how do you actually enforce those boundaries? My son screamed at me yesterday as loud as he could for turning the tv off so I said naughty step and he refused. What am I meant to do?

TV doesn't come back on again until child can be trusted to behave properly around it.

If he refuses the step, he goes to his room. You do not talk, chat or engage with him until he does so.

He's just enjoying the attention being naughty gets him. Don't raise your voice, carry on with your tasks or whatever you're doing, but he can do his 4 minutes on the step or go to his room for the rest of the day. No treats, desserts, no enjoyable toys, no playing with Mum.

@Keithlovessmash

I did the naughty step a few times when ds was little (he’s now 20), it was everywhere back then.

Only trouble is, he didn’t give a shit. After the first time, he would say “Mummy, I’ve just got water everywhere, I’m going to the step”

And off he would trot and sit there quite happily 🤦🏽‍♀️

So obviously that didn’t last long.

He’s always danced to his own tune. It was hellish when he was a toddler as it came out as defiance. But he mellowed as he got older but still kept the traits - he’s never given into peer pressure, always gone his own way, has always had great confidence in himself and is becoming very successful.

So it does all work out in the end.

To be fair, though, the step is for bad behaviour. Spilling water is an accident. I'd have told the child they didn't need to go for something like that. He shouldn't have developed the idea that you go to the step for every mistake. It's a last resort.

@Twentysplenty

Those who don’t believe in timeout/naughty step what do you do when they’re deliberately naughty? For instance he’s taking the baby’s toys off him and I’ve told him to stop doing that, he laughs and does it again! Laying his legs over his baby brothers legs (he’s sat up playing) so he can’t play with the toy underneath his legs. I mean, there needs to be consequence for bad behaviour. It’s not like he is wanting attention as we’ve all been playing together. I’m at a loss how to get him to do as he’s told.

I'm a huge fan of natural consequences- if you can't play nicely with a toy, how it is meant to be played with, then you can't play with that toy. If you won't put shoes on to go outside when it's raining, you don't go outside. However, I do recognize that as I only have one, I have infinite time and patience to wait it out or find something else to distract her with.

I don't have a four year old, so I don't yet know if it is appropriate to use distraction as a tool at that age, but that's where I would start in that situation. If DD was doing that, I'd be saying, oh baby, where are the toys?! Make a game of looking everywhere, get DD involved, so it's something she also enjoys and is interacting with. I would suspect that your DS may not enjoy the activity at hand, even if it is playing. He may want to play more interactively, a game of his choice or one that he feels more involved in.
Therefor playing in a way that he is a part of a bigger game may help him feel more included and have more attention.

What was he like before baby was born?

@bunnypenny

Following this with interest. What I struggle with is appropriate immediate consequences when, eg my 3yo starts hitting and/or kicking me. If it’s not related to a toy, I can’t take one away. If it’s because he wants the Tv on, I’m not going to switch it on. If it’s because he doesn’t want to go to bed, I’ll take him upstairs but then he’ll be wound up and upset before bedtime. I just don’t know what consequences to use.

Put in bed, close the door.

Don't feed the attention-seeking. Just stay calm, quiet, firm.