You can’t do naughty step or timeout with some kids

[Twentysplenty]

AIBU or is it impossible with some kids? My 4 year old is too heavy for me to carry and if I do manage to carry him to naughty step or his bedroom he just cries and screams and just runs back at me again clinging to my legs. If I tell him NAUGHTY STEP NOW. He refuses.

Please tell me IABU and naughty step/timeout IS possible, and how to do that with a child who just refuses.

(It makes it worse that usually my 1 year old will be sleeping and I don’t want 4 year olds screaming to wake the baby).

Never did timeout, reward charts, sending to rooms, smacking with any of mine. Not really a gentle parent either given I had 3 in 4 years. Told them off at times, had set routine as young kids, so tea on time, into bed by 7, naps until they needed them. Worked out OK

@Twentysplenty

I'm not a parent but I am a primary school teacher and have a tip about the dishwasher thing. Try something more specific like, "please come and take all the cups out of the dishwasher." Rather than a general request to help with the dishwasher. Or offer him a choice like, "What shall we take out of the dishwasher first? Cups or bowls?"

[quote Twentysplenty]@Passtherioja I think my son is the same! He is so defiant and before I had kids I’d have labelled him ‘a spoiled brat’ with the language he uses - DS can you help with the dishwasher please? NO I WONT (stamps foot)!

I mean how on earth do I get him to be a kind obliging child rather than a determined, defiant one? Does it just come with time? Is 4 still too young to expect them to do as they’re told?

I make sure I praise him lots when he is being helpful and kind.[/quote]
Just stick with it! I know that's not very helpful at the moment but keep calm and consistent. I thought my youngest would always be hard-work but it paid off in the end...took until she was about 6 or 7 though for any real impact to be seen!

The language of choice from a pp is good too. Would you like to tidy your toys or empty the dishwasher/ brush your teeth or was your face first (good with men too-would you like to put the kids to bed or empty the dishwasher!!)

It does work but you have to persevere. You don't have to physically carry child back to NS. Just take their hand and walk them back to it if they move off it. Minimum talk. Make it dull, after 20 times they give up.
Also magic counting works eg "I'm going to count to 5....1, 2, 3....." and whatever was expected of them gets done - amazingly you never get to 5 (which is just as well as I never had a plan B!)

I never used it and it was very much the thing when ds was little

I also choose a nursery that didn’t use it

At times he went to his room with his toys when I needed space for a few minutes or I left the room (his in the bathroom) but he wasn’t going to think it over it’s ridiculous to think a young child would

It was made popular by super nanny Jo Frost the woman who likes to humiliate parents on TV why anyone would take notice of her I don’t know

The thing that always strikes me is think about how short a period three or four years is. Think about three or four years ago? It's a flash.

Then think of all the things kids have to get their heads around in the three or four years from becoming verbal and mobile (say 2ish) to starting school.

They have to learn their boundaries. They are learning that they are separate and distinct from their parents - hence pushing boundaries and defying you. They are learning to deal with a wider range of emotions. They are transitioning from having a brain that is focused 100% on survival, to a brain that can manage relationships, other people's feelings, consider consequences, consider longer term implications.

Learning to be a functioning human is probably the steepest learning curve any of us will ever be on. And they are doing all of that in those few years.

None of that means you tolerate unacceptable behaviour. But my guiding rule in all of this is that (a) pick your battles - they will defy you and look for a reaction. Sometimes its OK to say 'you know what, you're right - we don't need to pick up our coat from the floor right now'. It teaches your kid that adults can sometimes admit they were wrong, but also avoids screaming matches over tiny things; (b) never deprive them of your love or presence - kids that age are partly seeing how far they can push you before you withdraw your love or protection. They need to learn that those things never go away, regardless of whatever other consequences might flow from their actions; (c) never try to reason or explain when they're in a meltdown - their amygdala has taken over and the bit of their brain that is capable of listening, understanding and rationalising is just not engaged at that time. There's just no point.; (d) stay calm - easier said than done! As above, they're on a really steep learning curve. You're like the air steward a passenger looks to during turbulence - if you're calm, they'll be(come) calm. Ultimately, they're on a learning journey, and your job is to help them through it - reassuring them that they're doing OK on this journey, even if there are blips along the way - is important not just for their short term behaviour, but their longer term self-esteem.

I use a naughty chair, and for us it really works as often just giving him the option of either stopping the behaviour or doing as I have asked or the naughty step is enough and very rarely does he actually end up on the naughty chair. We have used of from quite young but we used to use either the cot for time out when much younger and then the high chair as he got older as we could use the straps to keep him safe is necessary and also meant he couldn't get off and removed that as an issue. Now it's just a chair he knows he has to stay (we do a minute for every year) for us it really works as it takes him away from the situation and gives him a chance to calm down. I don't expect him to reflect as such but it's an opportunity to calm down and also a consequence of behaviour we don't like. We always explain after his time why he was put there, he says sorry and we have a cuddle and I tell him I love him.
Children process differently mine understands consequences and for him it's a good way to understand how not to behave.
Also I think the time can be beneficial for parents to calm down and regroup as well.

Hope I have said something useful but please don't beat yourself up it's hard to know the right way to do things especially in the moment

I never worked this out either! Never did time out as it was just impossible!

DS is now a lovely 10yo very well behaved and polite

My ds has clicked the what happens if I get to 5... and I generally snap "you don't want to know it's that bad" because I'm usually at the end of my tether. I do think it's unfair to be so cross at him now for screaming at you as it's your go to stress response as well. But it's really tough when you're not well and your main goal is not waking the baby. My poor child got in so much trouble for just being 3 in the proximity of a sleeping baby. I used to sit on the naughty step with them sometimes- if I felt they were completely freaking out and wouldn't go by themselves, just so we could keep the routine of it. I also set timers on my phone so we leave the playground/bath/tv when the timer goes. Or give them autonomy and say when this is over come in for tea.

I have often read on here that you're supposed to ignore bad behaviour. That's the worst advice possible in my experience. Many times, the bad behaviour is actually about getting attention, and they will escalate the bad behaviour until you finally stop ignoring them. In any case, they need to be made aware that their behaviour is wrong by calmly but firmly saying "no spitting" for example.
Don't ever ignore bad behaviour or you will live to regret it! speaking from bitter experience

Timeout naughty step style doesn't work for lots of children.

Ignoring bad behavior and not reacting to a child tantrumming are two different things.
Sure, some kids learn to mimic tantrum type behavior to get their parents to give in to them. But not reacting is not the same as giving them what they want. And you have to wait for the emotional overload of the tantrum to pass to have any sort of reasonable conversation with a young child.

I think an element of it is when and how you start it.

If you start it at age 2 they are less able to refuse etc. You take them to the step. If they get up and wander off etc you return them to it quietly and calmly etc. You don't engage in other activities (especially screens etc) until they have sat there for 2 mins or whatever.

Then having been doing all this, by age 4 its habitual, they understand that refusing won't achieve anything, they also might be starting to see how a couple of minutes to calm down away from stimulus can help them regulate their emotions etc.

Many times, the bad behaviour is actually about getting attention, and they will escalate the bad behaviour until you finally stop ignoring them.

Isnt the point to ignore the behaviour not the child?

Eg sometimes my toddler will have a full blown screaming fit over nothing. Often because she is hungry/tired. Ignoring the behaviour means not acknowledging that she is screaming loudly (so not saying "please stop that noise" etc). And calmly making available some plain crackers etc, or if you know they are likely tired, moving them to a comfortable location like a beanbag and putting on an audiobook or whatever as this usually allows them to nod off if thats what they need. I take ignoring the behaviour to mean not reacting to the screaming etc, or not giving in to the unreasonable request simply to make it stop.

In my house if I have asked a child to do something (tidy up, dishwasher, homework), nothing else happens until they do it. They know they can ask for help with it, and I'm reasonable about my expectations in terms of choosing when to ask, so they arent too tired etc, but nothing else happens til they do it, and they know it.

Don't bother with naughty steps, We never had so called naughty steps years ago, well we did have steps here and there, but not for putting naughty children on.! Some naughty behaviour, was usually dealt with, by speaking some strong affirmative words to the child, or even some kindly words about behaving nicely. you may need to repeat stuff a few times, until the child will respond eventually.

Naughty steps are akin to people who put their dog in a cage when its ripped your slippers up, or a cushion off your sofa !

I won't be using any time out/ naughty step type strategies personally.

I would say look up Janet Lansbury on facebook and Big Little Feelings on instagram.

People who say 'gentle parenting doesn't work' are not usually talking about what gentle parenting actually is and think it means letting them do what they want or decide everything or giving them too many choices. It's really not that. The pages I've mentioned have been quite helpful for me in terms of strategies, they're worth a look, maybe there will be something helpful there for you but if not then no harm done.

And to a pp - of course it's ok to be angry. We all get angry all the time for all sorts of reasons both logical and illogical. How we deal with that is a different matter, and it's important to teach our children that too.

In a perfect world I'd have dealt with your situation by saying 'the tv is going off in X minutes' (you could even use a timer if it was helpful, although 'at the end of this programme works too'.) Followed through on that - 'the TV is going off now because it's dinner time'. If he screamed 'I can see you're upset, that's ok, you were enjoying the TV and I turned it off. You can watch again tomorrow, right now is dinner time - do you want the blue cup or the red one?' If he keeps tantruming, just reiterate that it's dinner time, that you're going to give him some time to calm down, when he's calm he can come and have a lovely dinner and choose his cup/ whether to start with the pasta or the chicken and to come find you at the table when he's ready.

Yelling about naughty steps just escalates things, adds in another source of conflict and really doesn't help in either calming him down or getting dinner on the table and everyone fed. It also gives more attention to the negative behaviour.

BUT - it's not a perfect world and we all loose our patience and get it wrong and shout when we don't meant to. If you really want to persevere with the naughty step/ time out approach you need to look at how you can manage it calmly without it exacerbating every situation. If it's not working for you it's ok to ditch it and try something else.

I used to put mine in the porch and close the door. Only for serious stuff like biting and for a few minutes so they understood if they did that they got bored but mine were quite good usually.

"The bottom stair" worked for DS1. He would sit there, calm down and have a think about his behaviour. Then we'd talk.

DS2 would not stay there unless I was prepared to duck tape him to the bannisters.

You have to pick your parenting technique to match your child. It's not a "one size fits all" scenario.

Naughty steps are akin to people who put their dog in a cage when its ripped your slippers up, or a cushion off your sofa !

They really aren't (unless you are indeed duck taping your child to them)

@MsTSwift

I used to put mine in the porch and close the door. Only for serious stuff like biting and for a few minutes so they understood if they did that they got bored but mine were quite good usually.

Oof that's a bit savage! And my 2 year old would just open the front door to piss me off

It was brutal but it worked. Remember dd2 whispering to me “ee needs to go in the porch” when a child at playgroup was lamping another kid 😁

Oh and the door was too stiff for a toddler to open so they were effectively trapped. I only did it about 3 times. I nicked the idea from a friend

I never called it the naughty step.

It was just a safe place to go to allow emotions to cool down.

@Twentysplenty

Thank you. I use 123 magic a lot. It does work but he will often say “what happens when it gets to 3?” And I say timeout! Yet this is my issue, I can’t enforce timeout.

You keep returning him until he stays there - you need to watch some supernanny episodes!