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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

You can’t do naughty step or timeout with some kids

141 replies

Twentysplenty · 13/04/2022 10:52

AIBU or is it impossible with some kids? My 4 year old is too heavy for me to carry and if I do manage to carry him to naughty step or his bedroom he just cries and screams and just runs back at me again clinging to my legs. If I tell him NAUGHTY STEP NOW. He refuses.

Please tell me IABU and naughty step/timeout IS possible, and how to do that with a child who just refuses.

(It makes it worse that usually my 1 year old will be sleeping and I don’t want 4 year olds screaming to wake the baby).

OP posts:
megletthesecond · 13/04/2022 13:50

Yanbu. I tried for ages with my youngest and it never worked. She just got more aggressive.

Triffid1 · 13/04/2022 13:51

@bunnypenny

Following this with interest. What I struggle with is appropriate immediate consequences when, eg my 3yo starts hitting and/or kicking me. If it’s not related to a toy, I can’t take one away. If it’s because he wants the Tv on, I’m not going to switch it on. If it’s because he doesn’t want to go to bed, I’ll take him upstairs but then he’ll be wound up and upset before bedtime. I just don’t know what consequences to use.
This is difficult.

When DS went through a phase of hitting, age 2, we did naughty step and I would more or less hold him there if necessary, while ignoring screaming. Only took about 2 weeks to stop the behaviour.

For older children in a different situation, I'd be inclined to leave the room saying firmly, "you are hurting me and I don't like". If your child is the type to then destroy the room he's in, I appreciate that might be difficult. This could work better if there are two of you - for whatever reason, I've found that children who hit/kcik don't do it to everyone so, for example, if he doesn't hit/kick DH, when he does it to you, you leave, and DH stays in the room (not engaging/playing but just to be sure he's not going to hurt himself/break things).

Also depends on age and understanding. With DD, behaviour of this sort was stopped with an immediate "you hurt me, how dare you" said loudly, and pushing her away from me. She HATED that. Very quickly learnt that even playful kicking or hitting would not be tolerated.

But I do think children are like dogs in some ways. You can't expect them to have the emotional intelligence or overall understanding of why some behaviours are not okay, but it is nonetheless important to make it clear to them that those behaviours will never be tolerated. And that should start early - I didn't put up with DS hitting me age 2. If I'd let it go, it would have been a lot harder to deal with when he ws 6.....

TiredButDancing · 13/04/2022 13:54

I hate to say it but I do think that, barring additional needs, the problem is often that expectations for very young children are very low. So by the time the parent decides that behaviours are not okay, it's much much harder to manage. Kicking/biting/scratching/hitting should all be stopped from the day they start - often when the child is still a toddler. It's not about punishments, it's about not allowing the behaviour.

A good analogy I saw on here once was that if your child is a runner, you will be militant about holding that child's hand/carrying the child when crossing roads, even if the child absolutely hates it, screaming, crying etc. You do it to keep them safe. A similar approach to things like hitting should be applied from when the child is tiny - you don't want to upset them, of course, but certain things are just never okay.

Legoisaws8om · 13/04/2022 13:56

There is a Instagram American called Biglittlefeelings that you might find helpful to follow. They have a course I've not purchased yet but lots of people swear by strategies they share on supporting emotions. One thing they reccomend is special 10 minute time with each child e.g. when daddy gets home they take the baby and you have 10 minutes magic time on something special totally focused on the child. This helps reduced children demanding attention as much if they know they get there special time with mummy. Does he go to nursery as well?

JustLyra · 13/04/2022 14:02

What about a reward jar?

If you can’t physically lift him then naughty step isn’t going to work.

If you do 1,2,3 then you could add or remove a marble/ball/penny to the jar depending on if he complies.

You don’t have to use the jar for expensive rewards, but we did lots of “Oh wow X has soooo many maebles in his jar he wins an extra 5 mins tv time/an extra orange (DS2 had to have rationed oranges as he’d happily devour the lot in one go)/10 mins late bedtime with Mummy after the wee ones go to bed”

OfstedOffred · 13/04/2022 14:08

I think it is really important we allow children to express their dissatisfaction, frustration, sadness or whatever emotion they feel when faced with a boundary being set.

Yes.... but we also need them to learn to react proportionately. It is acceptable for a 2 year old to throw a tantrum for the tv being turned off. By age 4/5 I would really have expected them to have learned a bit that while it's annoying, it's not socially acceptable to completely lose your shit over it.

Otherwise you end up with teens and adults who's emotional responses are wildly disproportionate.

OfstedOffred · 13/04/2022 14:10

I hate to say it but I do think that, barring additional needs, the problem is often that expectations for very young children are very low. So by the time the parent decides that behaviours are not okay, it's much much harder to manage.

I think this is very insightful & true.

Keithlovessmash · 13/04/2022 14:17

@Lunalaen it was just an example. And that was his language at the time. He didn’t used to spill water he went through a stage of wilfully pouring it on things to break them, or pouring water on sofas because he wanted to.

Keithlovessmash · 13/04/2022 14:19

@Lunalae, sorry that comment was for you! Fat fingers here.

BingBangB0ng · 13/04/2022 14:25

@OfstedOffred

I think it is really important we allow children to express their dissatisfaction, frustration, sadness or whatever emotion they feel when faced with a boundary being set.

Yes.... but we also need them to learn to react proportionately. It is acceptable for a 2 year old to throw a tantrum for the tv being turned off. By age 4/5 I would really have expected them to have learned a bit that while it's annoying, it's not socially acceptable to completely lose your shit over it.

Otherwise you end up with teens and adults who's emotional responses are wildly disproportionate.

The last sentence here seems entirely speculative.
notanothertakeaway · 13/04/2022 14:25

@Twentysplenty

Those who don’t believe in timeout/naughty step what do you do when they’re deliberately naughty? For instance he’s taking the baby’s toys off him and I’ve told him to stop doing that, he laughs and does it again! Laying his legs over his baby brothers legs (he’s sat up playing) so he can’t play with the toy underneath his legs. I mean, there needs to be consequence for bad behaviour. It’s not like he is wanting attention as we’ve all been playing together. I’m at a loss how to get him to do as he’s told.
In that scenario, perhaps you could say "I'm going to sit over here with baby so she can play with her toys", pick up baby and move to other side of the room.
Cocomarine · 13/04/2022 14:25

Have you heard the phrase, “restorative time in, not punitive time out”? (think it’s Alfie Kohn)

It resonated with me.

At that age - any age up to 14 which is my experience to date! - I’m with PPs: I never saw a “bad” behaviour without a cause. Hunger, tiredness, over stimulation, immaturity (hardly their fault!), hormones - in older years.

Big disclaimer that I had one and they responded well to the approach. I’m not smug enough to say it’s guaranteed for all, or as easy to do with other children around.

It’s time consuming too. For children who will go to the step, that’s far easier than actually thinking through the issue and being present with them.

The TV going off?

Don’t underestimate empathy.
Sitting down with them and saying, “you do love watching don’t you? I bet it made you feel really sad that I turned it off.”
In my experience, that would lead to her expressing emotions healthily - for her age. She’d stomp and say “YES!”
Then I’d say, “I understand. But here’s why I did . Would you like to come and do x, or do you need a few minutes to feel cross about it?”

It might sound wanky to some… but it worked. I’ve never used a time out.

I hate the idea of dumping a small undeveloped brain to sit and “reflect” away from me, feeling punished.

Boundaries were always set later, when calm. If it was shouting about the TV, I let it go - occasionally, they just can’t control.

If it was more serious, I’d leave it until we were all calm and bring it up as a discussion. 9/10 I got an unsolicited cuddle and sometimes apology before bringing it up though. When I did bring it up, I didn’t say, “don’t behave like that” - I’d say, “hey - you were really earlier?” and let it flow from there.

Children of that age rarely CHOOSE bad behaviour.

notanothertakeaway · 13/04/2022 14:28

@bunnypenny

Following this with interest. What I struggle with is appropriate immediate consequences when, eg my 3yo starts hitting and/or kicking me. If it’s not related to a toy, I can’t take one away. If it’s because he wants the Tv on, I’m not going to switch it on. If it’s because he doesn’t want to go to bed, I’ll take him upstairs but then he’ll be wound up and upset before bedtime. I just don’t know what consequences to use.
@bunnypenny sometimes it helps to acknowledge the frustration and promise to do their preferred activity later eg "yes, I realise you're upset. I know you want to watch tv but we have to go out now. If you get ready quickly, then we'll have time to watch tv when we get back"
JustLyra · 13/04/2022 14:28

Also timers are an amazing tool - children don’t have a great concept of time so very often I’ve heard (both from my kids and kids I’ve worked with) “that was never 3/5/10 minutes…” whereas if they have a timer they’ve a visual thing and also a set finish that isn’t you shouting on them.

ThistlesAndUnicorns · 13/04/2022 14:29

I see time out as a way to calm down. My ASD child used to sit themselves on the naughty step but I have another who would scream and hated it so we did time out in the bedroom.

He's now a teen and still takes himself off to his room to calm down if he gets angry or frustrated then will come down and apologies or talk about what's upsetting him.

And my other child responded better to talking about the behaviour and didn't need the naughty step. I think it really depends on the child, it's not one size fits all.

BingBangB0ng · 13/04/2022 14:30

@Twentysplenty

Those who don’t believe in timeout/naughty step what do you do when they’re deliberately naughty? For instance he’s taking the baby’s toys off him and I’ve told him to stop doing that, he laughs and does it again! Laying his legs over his baby brothers legs (he’s sat up playing) so he can’t play with the toy underneath his legs. I mean, there needs to be consequence for bad behaviour. It’s not like he is wanting attention as we’ve all been playing together. I’m at a loss how to get him to do as he’s told.
I think he probably wants exclusive attention, him not the baby, possibly more than you can ever actually give him. He’s possibly also worried about the baby replacing him as the object of your affection, and is testing if you still love him when he does things you dislike/if you’ll still be there for him no matter what. Stuff like time out, which is experienced as a withdrawal of affection, is actively counterproductive if I’m correct about his feelings. The thing you posted about him begging you not to leave and grabbing your legs does seem to fit.
ThistlesAndUnicorns · 13/04/2022 14:30

*apologise

zaffa · 13/04/2022 14:31

@OfstedOffred

I think it is really important we allow children to express their dissatisfaction, frustration, sadness or whatever emotion they feel when faced with a boundary being set.

Yes.... but we also need them to learn to react proportionately. It is acceptable for a 2 year old to throw a tantrum for the tv being turned off. By age 4/5 I would really have expected them to have learned a bit that while it's annoying, it's not socially acceptable to completely lose your shit over it.

Otherwise you end up with teens and adults who's emotional responses are wildly disproportionate.

Yes, but we have to teach them that, they won't learn just by us expecting them to have learnt.

And some 4 year olds, when tired and frustrated and bored, won't be reacting to the irritation of the tv being turned off, they will be reacting to everything that has happened up until that point.

I mean, it's really really hard to be the parent in that situation, and I can imagine it's really wearing when you have to balance the needs of more than one child and teach them both at the same time. I was once told by a child psychologist that you only have to get parenting perfect 33% of the time, and be ok 33% of the time, and can still make mistakes for the final third - and still be a pretty good parent.

Twentysplenty · 13/04/2022 14:41

I was once told by a child psychologist that you only have to get parenting perfect 33% of the time, and be ok 33% of the time, and can still make mistakes for the final third - and still be a pretty good parent

I think I’m doing ok then, phew. I just lost my rag at him again because he continuously refused to put his sticklebricks away which the baby is trying to eat. It’s relentless and exhausting trying to get him to do as he’s told.

OP posts:
Twentysplenty · 13/04/2022 14:43

Oh and I said please put them away because if your brother eats them he’ll have to go to hospital. He said he wanted him to go to hospital, that would be funny. I give up.

OP posts:
GoFishandChips · 13/04/2022 14:43

By age 4/5 I would really have expected them to have learned a bit that while it's annoying, it's not socially acceptable to completely lose your shit over it.

Yes in normal circumstances but his mum is ill which he will have picked up on and is unsettling and seems he hasn't completely adjusted to having a younger siblings yet based on what the OP has said. And at four he's potentially still pre-school or only Recption age.

Twentysplenty · 13/04/2022 14:44

@GoFishandChips

By age 4/5 I would really have expected them to have learned a bit that while it's annoying, it's not socially acceptable to completely lose your shit over it.

Yes in normal circumstances but his mum is ill which he will have picked up on and is unsettling and seems he hasn't completely adjusted to having a younger siblings yet based on what the OP has said. And at four he's potentially still pre-school or only Recption age.

Yes he’s at preschool and he has been indoors all this week due to school holidays and me being ill.
OP posts:
JustLyra · 13/04/2022 14:49

@Twentysplenty

Oh and I said please put them away because if your brother eats them he’ll have to go to hospital. He said he wanted him to go to hospital, that would be funny. I give up.
That’s not an unexpected response - he’s clearly got jealous of the baby (which is natural for a child that age) and you told him to put something away because the baby was being naughty (he may not totally get that the baby is too wee to know not to eat sticklebricks)

Does he often have to put stuff away because of the baby?

Usernameinsponeeded · 13/04/2022 15:00

This is definitely not testament to my parenting as I know I just got lucky, to have chill kids. Out of all four of our children, our second born was the only one to ever go through a tantrum stage. We used the naughty step (time out or thinking step we called it). She was a little horror one day and came up to me all delightful to tell me that she’s going to smack her brother in the bottom of his leg and go straight to the thinking chair. Ran, kicked her brother and sat herself on the step before I could comprehend what this little 2 year old menace was doing. That was fifteen years ago now and we still laugh at it while agreeing the naughty step .... just....doesn’t ..... work!

Sorry off topic OP but didn’t want you to feel crappy for not using a naughty step. They’re rubbish! The most effective technique I ever found was to kill the kids with kindness. Even if you’re losing your shit inside, don’t let them know. Think that’s why we’ve always had a really calm household? That and luck obviously.

Big hug 🤗

Thewheelsfalloffthebus · 13/04/2022 15:03

Have you got a playpen OP? (A big one, not a travel cot size thing). You could portion of a space of your living room where your eldest is allowed to play with all the non-baby friendly toys. Or you could put a stairgate on his room so baby is not allowed in. That becomes his special space where baby is not allowed to go and he can play all the games he wants to.
Have you got a garden and a baby monitor? Can you do some noisier games with you 4yr old outside while the baby is napping? Take the monitor with you.
Can you leave baby with dad/your parents or someone and take 4yr old out to the park and for an icecream/hot chocolate just the two of you?