to think the prospective father does not need to go to every IVF appointment?

[TheOccupier]

Someone who indirectly works for me has recently let me know his wife is having IVF treatment. For the last couple of months, he's been absent frequently, often failing to answer emails, working from home if he's online at all, and not doing site visits which are an important and necessary part of his role. I am unhappy about this.

I am technically his client, not his employer - he's a long-term agency worker by choice (he is senior-level, with fairly unique skills and a lot of responsibility). He has spoken to his agency director about the situation and apparently they have signed off on it. Nobody has proactively communicated with me. I am not based at the office he is meant to work from so I rarely see him in person and wasn't even aware that he'd switched to WFH - I noticed a lot of out of office messages but put these down to site visits. I only found out about the IVF last week when I put him on the spot by asking for the date when he was last at a particular site that he's meant to visit weekly (because there's been an issue there that he should have picked up) and it turned out it's been over 2 months. He then told me what's going on.

So:
a) AIBU to be annoyed about him neglecting his work responsibilities and think IVF is not an acceptable justification?

b) AIBU to believe that the husband/partner does not actually need to attend the majority of IVF appointments and that my agency worker is being unreasonable in acting as though he's the one trying to get pregnant, especially as this is affecting his performance at work?

I am aware that IVF involves a lot of appointments and many of these will be at very short notice. However, the only people I know well who have done IVF have been women using it to become single mothers by choice, and therefore they have just got on with it and done most appointments on their own, other than when they needed physical support/driving home etc. I can't believe most prospective fathers go to ALL the appointments and get away with it at work - especially given that even women don't have any legal right to time off for IVF up until implantation!

If I'm not being unreasonable, how should I handle this? The guy would be difficult to replace, plus I really like him on a personal level, but his poor performance is now causing problems for me and others.

However, the only people I know well who have done IVF have been women using it to become single mothers by choice, and therefore they have just got on with it and done most appointments on their own, other than when they needed physical support/driving home etc. I can't believe most prospective fathers go to ALL the appointments and get away with it at work - especially given that even women don't have any legal right to time off for IVF up until implantation!

Everyone I know that has had it has had a long, emotional journey trying to get pregnant naturally before opting for IVF with their spouse. IVF is complicated and emotionally taxing. YABU because you're coming across really insensitive. If his agency signed it off then your problem should be with their lack of communication with you on this.

When I was pregnant DH came to every single appointment and scan and his employer was fine with this.

If he does a good job generally, do you want to create a problem over this?

Honestly I am not a fan of IVF in general but have some heart. They are each others chosen life partner, of course they want to be there with each other / for each other. It's not a sodding walk in the park and stork just drops a baby into their hands..

Maybe read up on what it entails! And find some Compassion.

When I had IVF, my husband only came to four appointments: the first one to talk money, then the one with the cup, the one where I was unconscious, and the one with the transfer.

Perhaps my husband is an unsupportive dick 🤷‍♀️ it certainly would have been lovely to have him for the other appointments but as you say there are so many I don’t think that would have worked.

Sounds like your colleague is being a bit over the top. The average woman needs three attempts at IVF before it succeeds. Some have many more tries. Then if it works there’s all the pregnancy appointments too. He doesn’t need to be going with her if she’s just having bloods taken or follicles measured etc.

If he's agency by choice then just tell the agency that you need someone who is more reliable

To be fair, whilst the bloke doesn't necessarily NEED to be present for all IVF appointments for physical reasons (they probably DO need to be there for emotional reasons), if they are using his sperm there are good reasons as to why he needs to be there for the majority of them. IVF isn't something that just happens to a women when you enter into it as a couple!

A : yanbu.
B : yabu.

If he does a good job generally, do you want to create a problem over this?

The thing is, he's not doing a good job any more. And I'm aware this situation could go on a lot longer. I am sympathetic, but not to the extent of tolerating poor performance or picking up the slack myself (he's not cheap).

Good lord what a pile of bollocks!

You have absolutely no idea where they are, how long it's being going on for, how many tries they might have had, how emotionally stressed and drained she is. Maybe she really needs him with her. Maybe he really wants to be there for her.

You aren't his boss,find someone else if you aren't happy with his work. It's really not your business why he is going.

the first one to talk money, then the one with the cup, the one where I was unconscious, and the one with the transfer
Sounds like a particularly bizarre season of "Friends"

Fertility treatments are awful, scary, and often painful. My DH attended every single appointment with me. It is completely unreasonable to suggest that he is not an integral part of the process.

Workplaces need to accommodate men being a part of all aspects of child rearing and that begins with the fertility process. Women won’t be treated equally in the workplace until we accept that men need to miss work sometimes too. I’m speaking beyond just supporting a partner through IVF. Men need to be there for prenatal appointments, infant checkups, school meetings, and on and on.

You're conflating two different issues, and being heartless while you're at it.

If the standard of his work has gone down, speak to him about it or follow the appropriate performance management route for a contractor at your business, including (I presume) a chance to fix the problem.

And framing it as 'he doesn't need to be there' is pretty callous considering the journey a couple would need to have been on to get to the point of IVF - he had decided he does, in fact, need to be there and has had time off approved for it. He could be taking time off for tap dancing lessons - someone approved it, and he's acting accordingly. You're actually bothered about the amount of time off, not the reason for it - maybe you should take up with whoever approved it without checking it wouldn't impact productivity, rather than dismissing his very reasonable, normal wish to support his partner through IVF.

My son's father came to every IVF appointment with me and his work were absolutely fine with it. It helped that his manager had gone through something similar so was a lot more understanding/sympathetic than you seem to be.

From what I observed in the waiting room at every appointment (and yes there were a lot, one every 2 days), the vast majority of people had their partners with them.

It's not a straightforward process and it takes a huge toll emotionally, so I was very glad I wasn't alone - both for the emotional support and because it's difficult to take in all the information you're bombarded with. So I was very glad there were 2 of us there to remember what had been said.

Jeez OP, have a heart!

@Ponderingwindow

Fertility treatments are awful, scary, and often painful. My DH attended every single appointment with me. It is completely unreasonable to suggest that he is not an integral part of the process.

Workplaces need to accommodate men being a part of all aspects of child rearing and that begins with the fertility process. Women won’t be treated equally in the workplace until we accept that men need to miss work sometimes too. I’m speaking beyond just supporting a partner through IVF. Men need to be there for prenatal appointments, infant checkups, school meetings, and on and on.

Agree with this.

While I can see your point to an extent, OP, you seem completely lacking in any understanding of just how emotionally, psychologically and physically gruelling IVF is. Either that or you’re completely lacking in compassion.

If the bloke has worked for you for some time and hitherto made a good job of it, why do you not care at all about his well-being?

YABVU
You have absolutely no idea what they may have been through, or are going through now. It is not yours to judge.

You sound utterly heartless.

Perhaps do some research in to IVF and what it entails.

My DP drove me to every appointment even though he wasn’t allowed in due to covid. I was a nervous wreck and needed him there for support. IVF is preceded by years of crushing infertility, and is full of uncertainty with low success rates. If you were able to conceive naturally, just thank your lucky stars and keep your opinion to yourself.

YABU 100% and quite heartless to have such a short opinion on it

Whilst you have zero idea why they are doing it, what stage they are at, what testing is being done etc, you are also claiming that the majority of the process should be his partners responsibility while he carries on. I think its fantastic he is there for every appointment and a good company/boss/client would support that and find ways to work with him to improve outside it

Stopping him from going to appointments is very likely to do the opposite to what you want. He'll just spend the day worried about his partner and not able to focus

From a purely practical perspective - YANBU. He’s neglecting work.

However - I had a difficult first pregnancy, not IVF, but with naturally conceived ID twins. There was several occasions where I had a routine scan and was admitted, and it was really awful for DH. Everyone just expected the husband to crack on with it - when I was diagnosed with TTTS (which can be potentially fatal to one or both twins) the doc signed me off for a month. DH was not. Luckily his work were very understanding but it wasn’t nice for him.

So have a heart. You don’t have to accept his work like this, but what you can do is ask what support he needs from you because him being distracted is going to be stressing him out as well.

I dont think the IVF appointments are the issue.

There is no need for him to have switched to full wfh. There is no need for him not to visit a site for 2 months.

He hasnt done that because of appointments. He is taking advantage of the situation and sounds like he is simply slacking off.

His appointments dont account for all that missed work and all those missed visits.

Just take the steps you would normally take. He is agency. And he wont be impossible to replace. Just tell the agency the work isnt being done and you've paid for it. You want someone else.

I can see your point although as others have said, IVF is a very challenging thing for a couple with a big enormously stressful journey before that point.
However, conversations need to be had re the work situation. Clearly things are not being managed well. Are you the right person to have that chat? If not, can you maybe arrange a meeting with the right person, yourself and him so all parties can make a plan so he is able to support his partner but also the work situation is acceptable?

While I have some sympathy with him wanting to attend appointments and support his partner it doesn't excuse him from doing his job properly. If he needs to do weekly site visits then he needs to do them or make sure someone else is covering.

He hasn't actually worked for us that long, only since the start of this year, plus a setup/handover period beforehand. But I really like him, he's a great fit and I was excited when we brought him on board.

It's good to have perspectives from those who have gone through IVF as part of a couple - as I said, the women I know who did it used donor sperm and still ended up with babies despite not having anyone at most appointments with them so I was under the impression that the father's presence is really only essential at "the one with the cup". I guess most people don't feel that way, which is useful to know and will no doubt help me to avoid pissing off people who've had IVF in future quite as much as I seem to be doing here. I'm not heartless, I do have every sympathy with infertility and the pain and stress that causes.

Ultimately though, this is a business relationship, not a social one, and the role requires site visits and attending meetings in person, so indefinite home-working isn't going to be suitable. I want to remain on good terms with the guy and with the agency, but I can't just ignore what's going on - my company's paying for a service that we aren't receiving, and other people are also affected so I will be raising it. I'm not going to get into my thoughts on whether he is reasonable to want this much time off, or even mention the IVF at all, but I think I will be asking his agency to find a solution for covering his duties, and I'll let them decide whether that's replacing him, bringing in some extra support (at their cost, not ours) or asking him to make some compromises. They are a small company and it's likely that they haven't been in this situation before.

Suppose everyone is different, has different emotional needs. His wife / partner may need him at these appointments. I didn’t need my DH involvement (doctor / hospital-wise) in my pregnancy (not IVF) until our baby was born (he attended birth). But, most women I know brought their husbands / partners to various appointments scans.

You are reasonable to pull him up on his work performance. Be clear with your expectations regarding availability, answering phone calls, emails and site visits etc.
I don't think it's reasonable raise the issue of the IVF as a reason for his poor performance until he puts it forward as an excuse. As it is, it sounds like you have assumed it is the reason based on your observations/conversations
It sounds like he's doing 75% of his job for 100% of the pay. You are reasonable to want to resolve this issue. If he needs a lot of time off/flexible working hours this needs to be addressed. Situations like this are part of the reason many employers don't like full time WFH
He probably thinks no one has noticed and and his wife wouldn't be aware that her DH employment might be coming into jeopardy as a result, which is something they need to work out between themselves.