To think if you vote Tory now…

[Joanna1988124]

You’re effectively propping up this absolute shit show of a government and have no empathy.

I’ll be honest, I’ve voted conservative before as a middle class family their (taxation) policies have suited me more than Labour. I honestly feel ashamed of this and I wish I could’ve seen that the conservatives agenda of ‘levelling up’ is BS.

Regardless of your personal situation, enough is enough now right? People are reliant on food banks, they’re choosing between heating and eating. Austerity has been a total nightmare for society causing the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer.

What this shows to me isn't so much that it's terrible that lots of people in Labour were taken in. That was the same all over. What was a shocking revelation was that they would not admit any discussion, even by their own party members, even by their own MPs. If the Tories had done that they too would be in the same position on this issue. That should just never happen, it's toxic and it suggests you could have the same problem with other issues.

Women's rights aside. This bothers me a lot. If you don't toe the party line you might be expelled and if you are not bullying will be condoned (Rosie Duffield).

This is a problem also in the Tory Party where my own excellent MP was one of those expelled for the Brexit Rebellion.

In truth I think the whole political system is a complete mess.

@lifeturnsonadime

What this shows to me isn't so much that it's terrible that lots of people in Labour were taken in. That was the same all over. What was a shocking revelation was that they would not admit any discussion, even by their own party members, even by their own MPs. If the Tories had done that they too would be in the same position on this issue. That should just never happen, it's toxic and it suggests you could have the same problem with other issues.

Women's rights aside. This bothers me a lot. If you don't toe the party line you might be expelled and if you are not bullying will be condoned (Rosie Duffield).

This is a problem also in the Tory Party where my own excellent MP was one of those expelled for the Brexit Rebellion.

In truth I think the whole political system is a complete mess.

I don't think it is true of the Tory party currently. You have Michael Fabricant openly campaigning for the Labour party and being their most successful vote winner and he is still a Tory MP.

[quote DownNative]@DdraigGoch

People forget that France are able to do what they've done with EDF because energy is still nationalised there.

Most European economies cannot do what the French have done.[/quote]
Would he have even done it if he wasn't in an election year? It's going to be a massive bailout after the election.

While Labour insists that it will 100% bring in the GRA I cannot vote for them ever, even if the rest of their policies were fantastic. Because I would be selling women and future generations down the river. Once a policy is in its incredibly hard to reverse and seen as this one majorly affects women only, it will be bloody impossible too, because men still hold most of the power and it wont affect them so they wont be in a rush to reverse it.

Without the ability to differentiate between men and women in law you get what you have now where women are referred to as cervix havers, bleeders, menstruaters.
News reports of men having babies, of men, reported as women committing violent and sexual crimes and this being recorded as female crimes. It affects everything.
When the data you have on who requires what sex-based services is useless then you cant target funding.
Women will be attacked in places that should be single-sex, because you will no longer be able to challenge male bodied people for fear that that person identifies as female.
Women will be housed in prison with intact males. 2 women just recently got pregnant in prison to a male bodied inmate in the women prison.
Women won't be able to sue for sex-based discrimination, because it affects males too , there's already been a case where a breastfeeding woman lost an industrial tribunal because 'men can breastfeed too, so it wasn't discrimination. Sounds fucking crazy, but the female penis also sounds crazy, but we are still seeing news reports of attackers using their female penis.
We currently have sex-based legislation that offers women some protection from being paid less, being sacked when pregnant, etc. But soon as the law recognises that men also suffer from these (transmen getting pregnant etc ) then they can claim there is no discrimination because its happening to men too.
We have to retain the ability to recognise women as a sex class in law or we lose all the rights we have fought for to alleviate the discrimination we face based on out ability to reproduce.

I suspect neither Starmer nor Johnson give a shit about the 'what is a woman' issue one way or another, Johnson was just canny enough to have a prepared line on it. Anytime's Starmer's asked he always seems surprised and jumbles his words.

(Not saying that gets him off the hook, in fact it's a bit off this late in the day, but I wouldnt infer any massive ideological gap between the two men.)

So my meme about the performance of this Govt & it only being fucking Tuesday, we'll now it's fucking Thursday & they announce their plans to ship Asylum Seekers to Rwanda for processing - never to return!

I am GC, I don't think anyone with a penis should be in a female space but my god, we can't let them win another Election! I should imagine another 10 years of Tories & we won't care what we're called!

What sort of Country are we living in! 😡

reesewithoutaspoon

Thanks for your post, your reading of the situation is much the same as mine. It's interesting that I see, understand and agree with posters who are worried about what other Tory policies will mean for women but they either can't or won't acknowledge there is legitimacy to the concern s you, I and many other women share.

Its like having a conversation about which bricks to use to build a house. You can't have a house without walls so there's no point in pretending they're not vitally important but equally a house build without foundations will lack durable structural integrity. Legal recognition and protection of females as a sex class are the foundations. Labour are happy to discuss our brick requirements but would like to give away our foundations. The conservatives think should sort out our own bricks but will maintain the foundations.

but they either can't or won't acknowledge there is legitimacy to the concern s you, I and many other women share

Of course we can. We share them but we don’t think they don’t trump everything else. We’ve seen what the Tories think about the least wealthy. They showed their colours with austerity - ideological in relatively prosperous times. The next few years will be austerity on steroids if they’re re-elected.

We don’t think they trump everything else - no idea where the extraneous don’t came from.

@Blossomtoes

but they either can't or won't acknowledge there is legitimacy to the concern s you, I and many other women share

Of course we can. We share them but we don’t think they don’t trump everything else. We’ve seen what the Tories think about the least wealthy. They showed their colours with austerity - ideological in relatively prosperous times. The next few years will be austerity on steroids if they’re re-elected.

I get that. I dislike the Tories with a passion, so they won't get my vote either. I,m either going to vote for an independent candidate who knows biology or I will spoil my ballot with a big double X. I know not voting is a cop-out. I live in a strong Labour region that has never had a tory voted in so my vote won't count anyway. But I will show them that I was prepared to get out and go to the ballot box, but they lost my vote for a reason. It's all I can do, but I won't vote to sell women down the river. I just couldn't live with that.

Of course we can. We share them but we don’t think they don’t trump everything else.

Our fundamental difference is that you prioritise the urgent need for walls and a roof now and I think securing the foundations is more important for women's long term interests.

I have not accused people who prioritise the way you do of being stupid and short termist whilst many who agree with you are happy to characterise people who share my views as stupid, selfish and morally bankrupt. Many of your allies are happy to preach about stopping hate without a trace of irony.

reesewithoutaspoon

Totally agree with you.

For me it does Trump everything.

Labour, if you have any advisors reading these threads, will you listen to how women feel about this please and stop calling us bigots for having genuine concerns about women and children?

Stop condescending us by telling us we need to 'take the heat out of the debate', and consider where the heat is coming from. Hint, it's not women with reasonable concerns.

A great start would be condemning the hate, death and rape threats that Rosie Duffield has encountered for being the internal voice for women with reasonable concerns.

There is time for the Labour Party to win back our votes. They need to act though.

It takes a while for people to have a social awakening a lot will after this but a lot won't they have a surprising number of working class seats in the north east after the last election when people saw the vote as a second brexit. Then those same people I know voted for them are struggling to afford food and energy at the moment because of the failing benefit system this government designed. I've always thought voting conservative is a sign of privilege and forgets about the hard workers on low- middle incomes!

@DdraigGoch

Considering Macron is feeling the heat from Le Pen this time round, I agree it's pretty doubtful France would have gone as far as they did.

The last few years under Macron suggests they wouldn't have.

@AlexaShutUp how is calling Tory voters lacking in empathy helpful? I've never voted tory before but unless there is a big change in how Labour approach the concerns of women about the destruction of their rights in the name of being trans friendly then I might.
I won't be bullied into feeling ashamed for not voting for a party that has behaved like Labour have around womens rights issues.

There's just a long long litany of offensive remarks and contempt, from David Lammy saying that gender critical feminists are "rights hoarding dinasours" to Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy signing a pledge to expel "transphobes" from the party if they won the leadership contest. And then you've got the appalling way Rosie Duffield has been treated.

Why are women the only group of people who are not allowed to prioritize their rights?

[quote MrsEdnaWelthorpe]@AlexaShutUp how is calling Tory voters lacking in empathy helpful? I've never voted tory before but unless there is a big change in how Labour approach the concerns of women about the destruction of their rights in the name of being trans friendly then I might.
I won't be bullied into feeling ashamed for not voting for a party that has behaved like Labour have around womens rights issues.

There's just a long long litany of offensive remarks and contempt, from David Lammy saying that gender critical feminists are "rights hoarding dinasours" to Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy signing a pledge to expel "transphobes" from the party if they won the leadership contest. And then you've got the appalling way Rosie Duffield has been treated.

Why are women the only group of people who are not allowed to prioritize their rights?[/quote]
That Lammy quote is horrendous. Nice that he feels so comfortable with giving away rights which are not his own, with a sexist jibe at the same time.

Whilst the alternative is to have moany, whiney, career sideline snipers like Rayner, Streeting, Ashworth, Dodds and Nandy ACTUALLY RUNNING THE COUNTRY, yes, I'll vote to keep them out.

Lol I give you Patel, Raab, Rees Mogg, Shaps etc who are actually running the country and are crap. Rayner, Streeting really couldn't be worse.

[quote MrsEdnaWelthorpe]@AlexaShutUp how is calling Tory voters lacking in empathy helpful? I've never voted tory before but unless there is a big change in how Labour approach the concerns of women about the destruction of their rights in the name of being trans friendly then I might.
I won't be bullied into feeling ashamed for not voting for a party that has behaved like Labour have around womens rights issues.

There's just a long long litany of offensive remarks and contempt, from David Lammy saying that gender critical feminists are "rights hoarding dinasours" to Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy signing a pledge to expel "transphobes" from the party if they won the leadership contest. And then you've got the appalling way Rosie Duffield has been treated.

Why are women the only group of people who are not allowed to prioritize their rights?[/quote]
Sorry, I wasn't particularly trying to help anyone, I was just stating the facts as I see them. I struggle to see how anyone who is able to empathise with vulnerable people could possibly vote Tory. Unless they're just totally ignorant, I guess, of the impact that Tory policies have been having on the most vulnerable in our society over an extended period.

I'm not saying that everyone has to be empathetic. It's a democracy, and of course you're entitled to vote without a care in the world for people who are vulnerable. It seems that the majority of people do that, which is why we are where we are.

Yes, I share your frustration and exasperation with Labour and most of the other parties with regard to the trans issue. David Lammy's comments would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that they're so worrying. I just don't share your optimism that the Tories will be the slightest bit better at protecting women's rights. Yes, it's true that they seem to have a better grasp on basic biology, but I am far from convinced that they actually care about women...far from it.

you are happy to characterise people who share my views as stupid, selfish and morally bankrupt

I’m not. And have never said that. As I said, I have those concerns too but I think your priorities are a luxury many women can’t afford. If you have a choice between a government with policies that mean you can’t feed your kids and one which offers a degree of financial security, which are you going to choose?

I’m not. And have never said that. As I said, I have those concerns too but I think your priorities are a luxury many women can’t afford. If you have a choice between a government with policies that mean you can’t feed your kids and one which offers a degree of financial security, which are you going to choose?

I'm not criticising other women for how they choose to vote or telling them they should prioritise what they think is important for groups they may not even be a part of. Believing in women having the right to legal recognition and protection is not a luxury, we are 51% of the population.

Sorry, I wasn't particularly trying to help anyone, I was just stating the facts as I see them. I struggle to see how anyone who is able to empathise with vulnerable people could possibly vote Tory. Unless they're just totally ignorant, I guess, of the impact that Tory policies have been having on the most vulnerable in our society over an extended period.

I'm not saying that everyone has to be empathetic. It's a democracy, and of course you're entitled to vote without a care in the world for people who are vulnerable. It seems that the majority of people do that, which is why we are where we are.

I know very well what it's like to have a care in the world for vulnerable people and to not be able to vote Labour because the harm that they would do is worse than the current Tory shit show.

My daughter is being failed by the Tory government in access to education and mental health services.

Under a Labour Government she is more likely to be mutilated and be made infertile.

I'm not criticising other women for how they choose to vote or telling them they should prioritise what they think is important for groups they may not even be a part of. Believing in women having the right to legal recognition and protection is not a luxury, we are 51% of the population

Nor am I - Jesus, this is hard work. I’m not part of the group who will have their lives decimated by another Tory government. On paper I should be a Tory voter - in terms of age, class, income and location I tick every box but I just can’t do it. You can, that’s your prerogative but I’m not going to agree with you.

And yes FOJN how ridiculous to imply that the rights of 51% of the population and the right of children to grow up without being mutilated and potentially left infertile is a luxury belief.

It’s a luxury if it means not being able to feed your kids. How many children have been “mutilated and left infertile”? Your hyperbole is laughable. I can see your point of view even though I don’t agree with it, you’re not even attempting to understand why some people don’t share it.