To think if you vote Tory now…

[Joanna1988124]

You’re effectively propping up this absolute shit show of a government and have no empathy.

I’ll be honest, I’ve voted conservative before as a middle class family their (taxation) policies have suited me more than Labour. I honestly feel ashamed of this and I wish I could’ve seen that the conservatives agenda of ‘levelling up’ is BS.

Regardless of your personal situation, enough is enough now right? People are reliant on food banks, they’re choosing between heating and eating. Austerity has been a total nightmare for society causing the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer.

[quote LexMitior]@MangyInseamYes I've seen many opinions but not much policy - which suggests that whatever MPs or the PM say now, its not worth very much.

They actually have the power to do something now - politicians who just speak without a proposal when they are in government are getting something cheap from voters.

You say the statement was decisive, but its a statement. Nothing else.

Next week maybe Keir S says something - who cares? He needs some actual policies, and so do the Conservatives. Both of them are hopeless on this until they show some results.[/quote]
Maybe it will come to nothing, but actual political action is usually not quick. It takes time for wheels to turn. The UN decision was a big deal, and the PMs statement coming right after suggests that was what they were waiting for - they are now in a position to start taking action on captured institutions. But it's going to take time to actually do it, and what it will probably look like is guidance coming out from various government bodies, I'd expect to see things over the next two months.

But what has been very clear and has already happened is that Tory MPs were allowed to have a variety of views and hash it out in the party, and Labour MPs weren't. And that's a really serious fault on the part of Labour that goes beyond just this issue.

@DragonOverTheMoon

No it's not. It's world wide ideology from TRAs that have changed womens lives all over. Canada, US, Europe, Iran just to name a few. It's just as global as the financial crash and has real impact to vulnerable women and girls. It has been a tidle wave that engulfed lots of us and it's not just been our country. We don't exist in a vacuum.

The conversion therapy bill is a good example, there have been pretty identical projects, all of which passed I believe, in Australia, Canada, and NZ, and I think in some states in the US.

Which is kind of amazing when you think about it.

The UK was the only place where there was enough public discussion to have any serious push back at all.

I almost voted Tory once. I thank the heavens DH literally talked me out of it. I was almost won over by that twat David Cameron. I was so grateful, even though labour lost, that I hadn't been one of the fools people who got them into power.

My excuse is that I was quite young and it was my first time voting. I voted for Gordon in the end. Now that I know more about politics I would never ever ever vote Tory. There are members of my family to whom I wouldn't even want to them to know I'd ever considered it!!!

That being said, I'm not sure I could vote labour at the moment. I think Kier is trying to acknowledge women exist at the moment but they seem to be wrapped up in trans ideology so that can fuck off too.

I almost voted Tory once. I thank the heavens DH literally talked me out of it. I was almost won over by that twat David Cameron. I was so grateful, even though labour lost, that I hadn't been one of the fools people who got them into power.

I actually did vote Labour once. Unfortunately, I was won over by that twat Tony Blair and I wish someone had talked me out of it. I was a fool and lesson learnt.

@Blossomtoes said:

"Other countries don’t seem to be inflicting the same economic damage on their citizens. The French haven’t seen their energy bills double."

How many countries are there in the world?

Hint: a lot more than just the French!

If you want a dire situation economically, here's a BBC News report on Sri Lanka from 4 days ago:

Now, THATS a fuel crisis.

And this from 8 days ago:

And THAT'S a governmental crisis.

Other countries in Europe ARE experiencing very, very serious economic issues too, especially the four Eastern European economies of Poland, Czechia, Hungary and Slovakia, according to Oxford Economics.

"Russia's invasion of Ukraine is being felt throughout the global economy, but few places are as exposed to its impact as the Central and Eastern European (CEE) countries. In addition to surging energy prices, CEE economies will be hurt by renewed supply shortages in manufacturing, loss of access to Russian markets, currency depreciation, and the refugee crisis. As a result, we have cut our growth forecast by around 1ppt this year and 0.5ppt in 2023. But the situation remains very volatile, and given the CEE's exposure, the risks are tilted heavily to the downside."

Ukraine's economy will be halved due to the war which represents a loss of $600 billion.

Middle income countries such as Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Egypt have all had to negotiate financial help from the IMF.

According to the UNCTAD Division on Globalization and Development Strategies (United Nations), it is developing countries who will be bearing the brunt.

Not those of us in high income countries such as the UK, France, Germany, USA, etc.

"The brunt is being carried by the developing countriesbecause of the rise in prices of food, of energy and fertilisers that is very steep and also the financial stretch under which the developing countries are already under.

Butthe European Union will see a fairly significant downgrade in its growth performance this year…so will parts of central and southern Asiaas well."

So, it is far from true that other countries aren't experiencing very serious economic damage that's being felt by their citizens. EU countries still have more to come, including France and Germany.

We in the UK are still far more fortunate than many, many people in the world.

@MangyInseam - well, I share optimism, but I don't share your opinion on political speed. If its a priority, things happen very quickly. Two months is pretty quick, but its not fast enough for the local elections.

If the Conservatives actually change their policies between now and the next election I will seriously consider voting for them because this affects women now, not in two years.

Labour are just stupid - really stupid, and its incredibly dumb that a party with a very poor history of party discipline (ie nearly anyone could say what they liked) chose trans policy as the thing that united them and where there was no debate (except it alienated a lot of women). It seems deeply misogynist to me that they did so - may be there's a story on that hasn't come out yet. But I'm not pro Labour either and I won't be voting for them currently.

[quote DownNative]@Blossomtoes said:

"Other countries don’t seem to be inflicting the same economic damage on their citizens. The French haven’t seen their energy bills double."

How many countries are there in the world?

Hint: a lot more than just the French!

If you want a dire situation economically, here's a BBC News report on Sri Lanka from 4 days ago:

Now, THATS a fuel crisis.

And this from 8 days ago:

And THAT'S a governmental crisis.

Other countries in Europe ARE experiencing very, very serious economic issues too, especially the four Eastern European economies of Poland, Czechia, Hungary and Slovakia, according to Oxford Economics.

"Russia's invasion of Ukraine is being felt throughout the global economy, but few places are as exposed to its impact as the Central and Eastern European (CEE) countries. In addition to surging energy prices, CEE economies will be hurt by renewed supply shortages in manufacturing, loss of access to Russian markets, currency depreciation, and the refugee crisis. As a result, we have cut our growth forecast by around 1ppt this year and 0.5ppt in 2023. But the situation remains very volatile, and given the CEE's exposure, the risks are tilted heavily to the downside."

Ukraine's economy will be halved due to the war which represents a loss of $600 billion.

Middle income countries such as Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Egypt have all had to negotiate financial help from the IMF.

According to the UNCTAD Division on Globalization and Development Strategies (United Nations), it is developing countries who will be bearing the brunt.

Not those of us in high income countries such as the UK, France, Germany, USA, etc.

"The brunt is being carried by the developing countriesbecause of the rise in prices of food, of energy and fertilisers that is very steep and also the financial stretch under which the developing countries are already under.

Butthe European Union will see a fairly significant downgrade in its growth performance this year…so will parts of central and southern Asiaas well."

So, it is far from true that other countries aren't experiencing very serious economic damage that's being felt by their citizens. EU countries still have more to come, including France and Germany.

We in the UK are still far more fortunate than many, many people in the world.[/quote]
I thought were an Asian nation so why the comparison to Sri Lanka which as far as I remember my geography is in the Indian Ocean.

Here you go @DownNative, it’s a bit more pertinent.

www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/31/as-uk-households-feel-pressure-how-are-other-european-countries-tackling-energy-crisis

@Blossomtoes

I would rather read the parties ' manifestos than vote along tribal lines

The Tories have broken at least two of their manifesto promises - they’ve raised tax when they said they wouldn’t and removed the triple lock which they promised to retain. Manifestos mean nothing.

Those manifesto pledges were made in 2019.

Who had a clue a global pandemic was going to occur in 2020 and change everything globally?

No one.

I'm afraid you're being highly selective there. Tax had to be raised due to the serious economic climate caused by covid, tanker blockage in Suez, refineries shutting down globally, lockdown lifted caused intense pressure in the global just in time delivery process, war in Ukraine and even eco-warriors blocking fuel distribution all contributed to an increase in cost of living which led to increased taxation.

The situation globally isn't great according to Oxfam:

"The combined impact of COVID-19, inequality and food price hikes could result in 263 million more people living in extreme poverty this year, resulting in a total of 860 million people living below the $1.90 (Rs 144.7) a day extreme poverty line. This would be an extraordinarily damaging rise that reverses decades of progress in the fight against poverty."

Note the causes they cite. Manifestos will not be able to be implemented worldwide as a result.

The world is in an unprecedented situation right now.

It doesn’t matter why manifesto promises were broken @DownNative. The fact remains that they’re not worth the paper they’re written on.

[quote LexMitior]@MangyInseam - well, I share optimism, but I don't share your opinion on political speed. If its a priority, things happen very quickly. Two months is pretty quick, but its not fast enough for the local elections.

If the Conservatives actually change their policies between now and the next election I will seriously consider voting for them because this affects women now, not in two years.

Labour are just stupid - really stupid, and its incredibly dumb that a party with a very poor history of party discipline (ie nearly anyone could say what they liked) chose trans policy as the thing that united them and where there was no debate (except it alienated a lot of women). It seems deeply misogynist to me that they did so - may be there's a story on that hasn't come out yet. But I'm not pro Labour either and I won't be voting for them currently.[/quote]
I think though that the things that are problems are not really things that the government has direct control over in a lot of cases. It's not the government who ever directly said, put transwomen in women's prisons, or said, schools, make your toilets gender neutral. Even if they want to make announcements about these things it will involve some behind the scenes negotiating first. It would be the same if Labour tried to do the same thing.

I think the problem for Labour is they took it at face value as a basic rights issue. In the mind of many MPS and others with influence, saying wait, lots of people have concerns about this was the same as saying, wait, I have concerns about black kids on the school bus. They'd already been well captured by identity politics. And they tend to be suffer at times - this seems to be a thing among progressives generally - of accepting an ideological position and being unwilling to consider whether concrete instantiations are actually effective. Not the better thinkers obviously but for some reason many of the ones that have influence.

A government policy is a positive act by politicians. The Tories own this stuff, to their prison policy, schools policy and health policies for trans. All theirs.

The conservative government haven't developed policies for prisons or schools, they have been written by the prison service and individual schools. Those organisations have written policy in accordance with Stonewall guidance rather than the law. This includes the College of Policing introducing a policy on recording non-crime hate incidents which could show on a DBS check without the person being aware of this record and without an investigation taking place. It seems to have been used almost exclusively to silence anyone who campaigns against self ID. This has been challenged by judicial review. See link below.

www.faircop.org.uk/

The government have committed to providing more money for trans healthcare but the treatment protocols are devised by clinicians. It took a whistle blower from the Tavistock to raise the alarm about how much influence lobby groups had at the clinic. The Tavistock is now under enhanced oversight.

Many of the changes we've seen have been years in the making, quite a few pre-dating the Tory/LibDem coalition but that doesn't make them a problem of Labours (or the SNP) making either. Trans lobby groups have had a long term strategy, getting Stonewall on board was part of that. Stonewall took on the campaign for self ID in 2015 and things have accelerated since then. Developments in the Scottish Prison Service are a good example of how long this has been in the works. The "consultation" to introduce a policy of self ID for Scottish prisoners started back in 2007. The link below details how difficult it has been to get any transparency about the process.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/04/06/the-sps-review-on-trans-prisoners-a-chance-to-get-policy-making-in-scottish-prisons-back-on-track/

There has been a concerted effort by lobbying groups to keep their activities under the radar in the hope that they could bring about so much change that self ID would simply be a matter of getting parliament to rubber stamp it. Explained in link below.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

The Conservatives realise they have made a big mistake by proposing self ID. Labour and the SNP are doubling down on their committment despite very reasonable concerns being raised.

thank you @FOJN for an excellent post.

[quote Blossomtoes]Here you go @DownNative, it’s a bit more pertinent.

www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/31/as-uk-households-feel-pressure-how-are-other-european-countries-tackling-energy-crisis[/quote]
No, your article is actually quite selective. Note how it only includes a few of the major economies in Europe. It's selective for a reason.

While the Guardian asserted the UK Treasury remains "tight-lipped" on further measures to help, it includes Denmark.

But notes that "The Danish government remains in talks to decide how much support it can offer towards household bills." Nothing has actually been agreed in Denmark which means they're in a similar position to the UK. Contradictory of the Guardian, really.

Unfortunately for you, Oxford Economics whom I quoted is NOT selective like the Guardian. Why do you think Eastern European economies were blatantly ignored by the Guardian, for example? Same for countries outside the European continent?

Over a quarter of Bulgarians struggle to heat their homes. Yet only 10 per cent of Bulgarians had a positive view of the measures being taken by the government to support businesses and households, according to a poll for the public broadcaster Bulgarian National Television.

No mention by Guardian?

Answers on a postcard, please!

"It’s not that the UK is necessarily the miser of Europe. There are more generous countries – yes, there are few that are as generous as what has been done in France – but then you look at places like Germany and we look comparatively better off than many German households."

• Josie Dent, managing economist at the Centre for Economics and Business Research.

That puts Germany into perspective too.

A week after KS fucked up on "What is a woman?", PM Johnson refused to say that only women have a cervix. www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1501654/Boris-Johnson-GB-News-latest-Conservative-Party-speech-woke-cancel-culture-woman-cervix-vn/amp

@FOJN - that is not quite right - of course the government is responsible for these policies and knew of them. It cannot pretend that somehow there is rogue policy making element - schools and prisons are accountable and so are their policies which are part of government, with Ministerial oversight.

The fact the Conservatives have recently decided to engage in a way that should have already been happening, given they have been in power for ten years, is crap. One statement from the PM is nothing, and Ministers could have addressed the consequences of self ID long ago.

Well done for campaigners in putting it forward, but basically, remember that the deal here is probably women just retaining base single sex rights they had in law, which is like running to stay still.

Given all the warm words and looking the other way, I think some actual changes are in swift order otherwise it looks like business as usual, cheap words, no action.

@Blossomtoes

It doesn’t matter why manifesto promises were broken *@DownNative*. The fact remains that they’re not worth the paper they’re written on.

I'm afraid it does and you're being disingenuous about it in relation to an unprecedented global situation.

Would you be saying that if Labour were in government?

I think not and THEY would have had to abandon manifesto pledges too in light of it. Various governments globally did.

The only comparisons pertinent are major European economies. It’s pointless comparing apples and pears. Here are details of Denmark’s strategy for supporting its citizens.

www.thelocal.dk/20220408/danish-taxpayers-to-receive-19-9-billion-kroner-in-rebates/

[quote Blossomtoes]The only comparisons pertinent are major European economies. It’s pointless comparing apples and pears. Here are details of Denmark’s strategy for supporting its citizens.

www.thelocal.dk/20220408/danish-taxpayers-to-receive-19-9-billion-kroner-in-rebates/[/quote]
I think you will find @Blossomtoes that since Brexit the UK has been an Asian country with our pivot to that area, although because we are only party way through the pivot we are best compared to Indian Ocean countries such as Sri Lanka.

Of course @jgw1, silly me!

LexMitior
I agree with almost everything you've written. Yes there should be ministerial oversight but I think the effect of institutional capture from the Girl Guides to Whitehall should not be underestimated, look at how much abuse people receive for speaking out.

As you say the Conservatives have only just started to take the action they should have done long ago. I've been shocked at the amount of policy various organisations, including government departments, have made which breeches the EA and has gone unchallenged.

And yes, we are, very depressingly, running to stay still. Hopefully the tide has turned and perhaps other parties will be persuaded to change their stance before the next election so that many women feel they have a choice rather than voting for the least worst option.

I mean - it's never been the case that governments at the ministerial level has been responsible for things like prison policy or choosing school curricula. How could they be?

In some cases they aren't even supposed to interfere in a direct way.

Why no one said, males in women's prisons, that's crazy, stop right now, I don;t know. But by the same token an awful lot of normal people have been totally bamboozled by people like SW telling them what the best practice was supposed to be, because their reputation as the experts was so stellar.

What this shows to me isn't so much that it's terrible that lots of people in Labour were taken in. That was the same all over. What was a shocking revelation was that they would not admit any discussion, even by their own party members, even by their own MPs. If the Tories had done that they too would be in the same position on this issue. That should just never happen, it's toxic and it suggests you could have the same problem with other issues.

Tax had to be raised due to the serious economic climate caused by covid

No it didn't. That is an ideological position - notably the original plan was highly regressive too - now reversed a little by the NI threshold increase, albeit only after lower earners and employers get caned for a few months.

@Joanna1988124

You’re effectively propping up this absolute shit show of a government and have no empathy.

I’ll be honest, I’ve voted conservative before as a middle class family their (taxation) policies have suited me more than Labour. I honestly feel ashamed of this and I wish I could’ve seen that the conservatives agenda of ‘levelling up’ is BS.

Regardless of your personal situation, enough is enough now right? People are reliant on food banks, they’re choosing between heating and eating. Austerity has been a total nightmare for society causing the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer.

Totally agree. My dad was a Tory MP. This is not what he stood for where is the decency?

@hamstersarse

It’s all manufactured outrage that I can’t get fired up about

Dominic Cummings started all of this which just makes it all a shit storm of vendettas and revenge

Also, I’ve never in my 47 years been to a party that lasts 11 minutes

Well to be fair, if I was in a room with that miserable shower of bastards, I wouldn't stay long either.