To think if you vote Tory now…

[Joanna1988124]

You’re effectively propping up this absolute shit show of a government and have no empathy.

I’ll be honest, I’ve voted conservative before as a middle class family their (taxation) policies have suited me more than Labour. I honestly feel ashamed of this and I wish I could’ve seen that the conservatives agenda of ‘levelling up’ is BS.

Regardless of your personal situation, enough is enough now right? People are reliant on food banks, they’re choosing between heating and eating. Austerity has been a total nightmare for society causing the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer.

why wouldn't you want to live in a society with excellent health and education provision for all

I agree who wouldn't but as I recall this didn't happen under the previous Labour government either, they seemed more interested in fighting illegal wars.

And left the economy in a dreadful mess.

Stonewall did not draft and implement the existing legistlation, the Conservative party did.

The Equality Act was bought in by Labour, it is or rather was a very good piece of legislation until it started to be misrepresented. Stonewall misrepresented the EA 2010 by replacing the protected characteristics gender reassignment with gender identity and sex with gender. They then sold training to companies who unknowingly purchased this misinformation.Unsurprisingly people trusted and believed Stonewall and it's only in the last 5 or 6 years it's become apparent how widespread that misinformation has become. Stonewall also told people it was unlawful to exclude transwomen from single sex spaces and services, again this is untrue. Transwomen even those with a GRC can be excluded from single sex spaces and services if it is a "proportionate means to a legitimate aim". The recent guidance issued by the EHRC seeks to correct this misinformation so that the the law, as it is written, is upheld and not replaced by Stonewall law.

The Conservatives have eventually got around to correcting this misinformation, Labour would like to make it law.

lifeturnsonadime I've essential duplicated you post by being such a slow typist.

@FOJN

lifeturnsonadime I've essential duplicated you post by being such a slow typist.

You have explained the situation better than I did!

@MarshaBradyo I would recommend looking at AP news and Al-jezeera as a starting point. But in all honesty all media is propaganda/biased to some degree which is why it’s important (imho) to make the effort to look around.

Also, taking massive massive pinches of salt, there’s a lot of online chatter which gives a very different air of the view of the UK than our own press do. I’ve found India’s subreddit particularly eye opening lately, particularly around discussions about India’s energy deal with Russia and the comparisons with the EU. Tbf the UK doesn’t get a look in with that one but that’s interesting in itself.

There was a spokeswoman from the Ukrainian government at the end of david Lammy’s show on LBC today who was realistic but scathing not just of the UK but the EU/America and quite rightly pointed out the UK was part of the agreement that persuaded the Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons in return for our protection which has proved not to be worth the paper it’s written on.

I was probably a bit hasty saying the UK isn’t relevant, perhaps a better descriptor is that we’re not as relevant as we think we are.

I'll just leave this here!
Obviously it doesn't include last week's debacle of the Chancellors wife having Non-Don status & the Chancellor himself holding a Green Card or the week before that!

I just don't know how anyone can defend them!

Has the Labour party confirmed that its intention is to change the EA? Is that what its aims are? To make it unlawful to exclude trans from single sex places altogether? I certainly don't want this.

Stonewall misrepresented that legislation.
Oh, so it's Stonewall's fault? And Labour's fault? Not the fault of the government who put men into women's prisons. Not the fault of the government who have overseen the rapid rise in trans presenting children. Not the fault of the government whose job it was to protect children, but instead allowed and funded puberty blockers on their watch.

The Tory party and press have played a blinder in brainwashing women with But Labour, keeping the focus away from what they were doing. If you want to see change, watch what your government are doing and what their TRA's are saying, remember what Mordaunt said about the HOL commonsense amendments to the Conservative proposed GRA last year? And she's being tipped as a future leader.

Womens rights are not safe under the Tories. They never have been. It's a lie, like the one on the Brexit bus, the one they told the queen in order to suspend parliament, and the one about being the party of Law and Order.

I've heard some shit excuses for voting Tory including:
They know what a woman is.
They are good with the economy (hahahaha)
There is no credible opposition.

@lifeturnsonadime
You say that but the reality is that deregulation of the banks in order to follow free market economy policies created the Global crash, not the U.K. Labour government.
As it happens, Labour invested year on year in schools, sure start centres - that gave valuable support to so many families, mental health services, to make just a few. I'm no fan of Blair either, particularly taking us into an illegal war, the PFI initiatives were insane, but Labour took far better care of the people in the U.K. than the tories would ever consider.

@knowinglesseveryday

The notion that the Tories stand for woman's right is utterly farcical.

I so agree with this.

Women are more likely to be living and raising children on low incomes, make more use of the NHS, more likely to be reliant on public transport, more likely to need support from adult social care, more likely to work in the public sector and have their pay frozen for years.

Women's lives have been damaged far more than men's by Tory policies.

Oh, so it's Stonewall's fault? And Labour's fault?

Well Stonewall chose to misrepresent the law so, yes, they are responsible for that. My point, as I'm sure you know, was to explain how women's rights have been so undermined under a conservative government who are now trying to correct that and the very things women are protesting about under a conservative government are things Labour would like to make law.

The Denton report would help you understand the secrecy around the incremental changes which have bought us to where we are now.

I am looking at what the parties are doing. The conservatives have shelved self ID and Labour keep restating their committment to it. I will make a decision about who I vote for based on the information I have at the time, not on what someone thinks might happen in the future. At the moment I would be likely to vote conservative because the leader and majority of the party are not pushing self ID but Labour are. If that changes, I'll review things. The conservative have yet to investigate or expel female members for recognising biological sex, the same cannot be said for Labour.

I hope you don't think calling people brainwashed is a persuasive arguement. I have considered this issue and my priorities very carefully whilst remaining aware of the faults of the conservatives. You can continue with your hectoring tone, it suggests you think you understand politics better than other people, but all you've given me is a list of resentments against the conservative party and not a reason to vote Labour. I am very clear about reluctantly being a single issue voter, convince me Labour will uphold the EA 2010, they keep telling me TWAW which means the EA is useless for protecting women.

Resentments? Nah, I've listed what the Conservative party have actually done while they were blindsiding you all with "But Labour" and you bought it hook line and sinker.

The Tory party is a bunch of lying, self serving cunts. But sure yeah, this time they're telling you the truth.😂😂😂🤥

@JustPlainKnackered

It is far easier to fool a person than to get them to see they have been fooled. People are stubborn, even when their denial is to their own detriment, especially if it is to someone else's. How anyone could ever vote for the party that looks after the establishment at such a cost to the people who work hardest in our society is beyond me. Aside from any worries about the basic decency of that attitude, on a grand scale it makes no sense - why wouldn't you want to live in a society with excellent health and education provision for all. The rich could still have more money than they could possibly spend whilst not dodging their taxes. Why would anyone vote for the scumbags that support such disgusting greed?

Complete load of crap.

The top 1% of earners in the UK pay more than a third of all income tax paid to the government, whilst 42% of adults pay no income tax at all.

The Tory party is a bunch of lying, self serving cunts. But sure yeah, this time they're telling you the truth.😂😂😂🤥
^
Here we go the lefties lowering the tone as usual.

@AlternativePerspective

It baffles me that people rate Keir Starmer. When he first took over the labour leadership I thought he might have something about him, but he’s such a drip. He always sits in the commons bleating about how the conservatives “shouldn’t be doing this,” and “should be doing that,” but he never actually says what his party would do. He’s too busy taking potshots at the tories.

Maybe if he came up with something concrete people would be more inclined to listen to him.

I'm no Starmer fan, but that is the point of an opposition mid term, no? To oppose.

They would be fools to talk about what they would do, two years out from the next GE because it's all hypothetical and and a lot can change in two years.

The proof of the pudding will be whether they have anything when it comes to the time.

[quote Cornettoninja]@MarshaBradyo I would recommend looking at AP news and Al-jezeera as a starting point. But in all honesty all media is propaganda/biased to some degree which is why it’s important (imho) to make the effort to look around.

Also, taking massive massive pinches of salt, there’s a lot of online chatter which gives a very different air of the view of the UK than our own press do. I’ve found India’s subreddit particularly eye opening lately, particularly around discussions about India’s energy deal with Russia and the comparisons with the EU. Tbf the UK doesn’t get a look in with that one but that’s interesting in itself.

There was a spokeswoman from the Ukrainian government at the end of david Lammy’s show on LBC today who was realistic but scathing not just of the UK but the EU/America and quite rightly pointed out the UK was part of the agreement that persuaded the Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons in return for our protection which has proved not to be worth the paper it’s written on.

I was probably a bit hasty saying the UK isn’t relevant, perhaps a better descriptor is that we’re not as relevant as we think we are.[/quote]
Thanks for suggestions. I mostly go to radio due to how accessible it is and compatible with life (either dc bouncing around or wfh) but I do try to filter any media through a why am I hearing / reading this.

R4 is good but can be a bit combative, Times radio is excellent as they give more space for analysis.

I don’t think we could do it alone and think united NATO is key, in fact I often hear MPs say the same. James Heappey would not be drawn into response on chemical weapons use without NATO alignment which I think is correct.

The other reason I like it is you get direct spokespeople from Ukraine without that added layer of a headline editor etc. I am aware of criticism against west from some quarters although it’s probably lengthier topic than this thread (the Ukraine thread covered it a lot but I’m not reading it much now)

What did you think of Zelensky’s views btw in previous post?

@DdraigGoch

I suspect that at the next local elections I'll be voting to keep my existing independent councillors, as it's about local issues not an opinion poll on Westminster (or Cardiff).

A party at Downing Street isn't going to influence my vote in the slightest. It's trivia as far as I'm concerned, not the sort of issue significant enough to outweigh more important matters in a general election.

I'm more concerned about food security, defence and energy generation. On food security, it seems to be the policy of both Whitehall and Cardiff (but worse in the latter) to pay polluters to greenwash their images by turning productive farmland into forestry.

On defence, no party have got a great record (though nothing would be worse than the unilateralist policies espoused by the mercifully former Labour leader).

On energy generation, both main parties have finally backed nuclear power, though the dithering by the Blair government has cost us precious time.

I'm also concerned about public transport and again can't find much to appeal to me. At least Boris has a thing for hard hats and grands projects so we might see some decent rail infrastructure (despite several projects for the North East getting kicked into the long grass).

Women's rights too - Boris has finally come out and supported women's rights to privacy, safety, dignity and fair play. Starmer just appears to be too cowardly to say it out loud. Doesn't do a lot to build respect if he won't say what he really thinks, incoherent legalese won't cut it. Obviously if I was in Crispin Blunt's constituency, I'd definitely be sending my vote elsewhere - fancy defending a child molester.

Who will I vote for? Well in Wales we've had 23 years of Labour-led governments, I'm certainly not voting for that shower. Plaid are out, as they're nationalists. Both of them, plus the Lib Dems and Greens are happy to throw vulnerable women and children under a bus so I can't really vote for any of them. Still, the sitting (Conservative) MS is good, and the (also Conservative) MP seems reasonable (even if he seems to just follow the whip), he's even met with local farmers and is getting assurances from land owners that tenant farmers won't be evicted for yet more forestry. I also have to remember that a Labour government is likely to be one in coalition with the SNP. Something which I'd like to avoid at all costs.

Yes, a Labour and SNP coalition is something many, many people in Scotland want to avoid too.

It says a lot that too many in this thread prefer to blame others for Labour's own failure to win elections. This attitude has been a big part of their downfall in Scotland as well as Labour took the Scottish electorate for granted while creating problems such as costing Scotland £30 billion in failed PFI deals. They cost the UK as a whole £65 billion which we'll only pay off around the year 2049.

That's a long time to spend paying for the failures of Labour.

SNP and Conservatives both have Labour where they want them. So, I suggest Labour voters in England should do their best to be LESS England centric in order to understand Labour's problems across the UK.

They do say that there are 2 types of Conservative voters, millionaires and useful idiots. Check your bank balance to see which one you are.

You might think the Conservative party are bad but apparently the electorate deem the Labour party to be even worse. What's your excuse if Labour cannot get themselves elected against such a bad government?

The top 1% of earners in the UK pay more than a third of all income tax paid to the government, whilst 42% of adults pay no income tax at all.

Well that shows that at least a proportion of that 42% are in poverty jobs or scraping by on benefits.

As for the 1%? High earners like Judges and Doctors generally can't dodge tax, but very wealthy people can - and do.

@lifeturnsonadime

why wouldn't you want to live in a society with excellent health and education provision for all

I agree who wouldn't but as I recall this didn't happen under the previous Labour government either, they seemed more interested in fighting illegal wars.

And left the economy in a dreadful mess.

What utter bollocks.

Labour actually spent plenty on schools and hospitals.

As for the economy - it was in a better state than it is now after 10+ years of Tory rule.

The 2008 crash has be redefined by twatty revisionist historians as a Labour thing as if the rest of the world wasn't affected - totally ridiculous.

@CounsellorTroi

He’s too busy taking potshots at the tories.

You do understand that that is his job?

No, Starmer's job is to revamp Labour so people want to vote for them. He's yet to figure out how to make Labour appealing to Scottish Unionists and has made weak efforts to appear to be Unionist. That will not really work until he's going further AND dumps the SDLP as a sister party as well as takes a tougher line with Sinn Féin. Pigs will fly(!)

Then, it's holding Government to account as Leader Of The Opposition which is NOT the same thing as "taking potshots".

Labour is weak across the UK.

@BringBackCoffeeCreams

They do say that there are 2 types of Conservative voters, millionaires and useful idiots. Check your bank balance to see which one you are.

Lovely, have you found this gem to have effectively persuaded anyone to vote against the Tories, or is it just personally satisfying to belittle other people you dislike?

The moral rage from the left that appears to render it incoherent is one of the reasons I won't vote Labour. It has abandoned reason and argument in favour of faith and shame and I won't be a part of it until it stops preaching to the electorate and works to represent it.