To think most ‘Mum guilt’ is perpetuated by incompetent dads

[TeaAndBrie]

So we’re going on a short European break for the weekend, me and 5 friends. We’ve not all been together for 8 years. We’re going to celebrate joint big birthdays.
The amount of stuff that some of them is doing before they go to make things easier for the dads of their children is just bonkers. Meal planning and prepping, food shopping, cleaning, washing, arranging play dates, organising parents to help etc.
Most of their husbands go away often for work/golfing weekends. You can guarantee they’re not afforded the same preparation or having to deal with children in years as they’re going to miss mummy too much!

Wow! I'm not sure why I would be with someone who could look after their own child
I go out to work or go for a early night and leave my DH... to look after ... his own child. I give it no second thought about food or sleep or clothes ... the same when my DH leaves me to look after ... my own child

No, the assumption is they will get less care and attention when they’re with their father. That’s what I take issue with - why a reduction in standards?

Who sets said standards? And who adheres to them?

@Ylvamoon

No, the assumption is they will get less care and attention when they’re with their father. That’s what I take issue with - why a reduction in standards?

Who sets said standards? And who adheres to them?

The people who write posts saying ‘ah, who cares if their clothes aren’t ironed and they have McDonalds for dinner and don’t see their friends’ - the people who assume that dad in charge means kids will miss out on certain things they’re used to.

As a dad that's fairly competent I've been stunned by the sheer uselessness of other dad's. IMHO there's a definite correlation between the size of salary and whether they play golf. Thus: large salary + golfer = chocolate teapot.

However, a small proportion of other couples seem to consist of perfectly capable dad's but they just do things differently; sometimes too differently for their wives.

Wow, lots of judgement on this thread.

What if those mums are just trying to be ...nice(?) They're going away for a couple of days to have a groovy time and want to facilitate a groovy time at home... I don't see the problem.

Why does it have to be 'martyrdom' or 'controlling'?

If I was going away for a few days I would do what I could to support my husband - becasue parenting solo is intense! I'd cook a big casserole and probably do a shop, not becasue he's incompetent or I couldn't bear the thought of not being in charge of every single detail, but because it would take the pressure off. The same way that if he was going off for a few days, he would make sure the jobs that I don't really love were sorted.

I think there are a few issues being conflated here:

• women supporting partners in preparation for solo parenting (meal prep, food shop, play dates etc.)
• unhealthy dynamics in relationships e.g. one partner (in this case husbands) not pulling their weight.

and this is leading to a lot of unfair assumptions (made in bad faith!) namely that women will only do this if their husbands are incompetent, or that (some) women are controlling, and don't trust their (incompetent) husbands.

Have you considered that maybe this arangement works? That all parties (including the children) are happy with it? That the mums get a bit of a holiday, and so do the dads and kids?

The same way that if he was going off for a few days, he would make sure the jobs that I don't really love were sorted.

This would have to be the key to that dynamic. The reciprocation of thoughtful things like making sure the food shop is done, or the laundry is under control is thoughtful.

You don't say that in you would feel the need to micromanage - to lay out outfits, or arrange respite childcare though. Those sorts of things come from an assumption that Dad Can't Cope. Or an unwillingness to relinquish unreasonable standards such as specific clothing/food choices.

The same way that if he was going off for a few days, he would make sure the jobs that I don't really love were sorted

Yes… as I said upthread, when DH goes away he cooks in advance and freezes it so I don’t need to do it. He does the majority of the cooking generally and he wants to take the pressure off when he’s away so that I don’t have to come in from work after picking the kids up from after school club and the toddler from nursery then cook a full dinner.
He’s not being a ‘daddy martyr’, he’s just being helpful.

Some dads are capable, some less so. But many men do take pride in their parenting. DH is very capable and one of his pet peeves is when when some of his friends say they can’t make something because they are ‘babysitting’ their own kids it’s not ‘baby sitting’, it’s parenting.

When my children go away with their father and paternal family in August, it won’t be their father who sorts out their clothes/belongings and packs them.
I do find it infuriating. It’s not difficult for a grown man to plan/ buy/ pack what they need without it falling on to me. His other ex never had this problem because I was always there.

I find it odd that some mothers leave clothes out so their kids are wearing the 'right' co-ordinated clothes. What does it matter if they're going to the park or the shops? You're not even there to enjoy them looking cute or whatever. Why can't they wear spots and stripes and red and green and a tutu and fairy wings all at once as long as it's weather appropriate and they're happy?

Definitely martyrdom, perpetuated by all these theories of parenting peddled all over social media, Mumsnet and society in general - pushed largely by women - that tell us How To Do It (subtext: you're not doing it well enough). I think a lot of women embrace this because they like the identity they feel it gives them. Though of course yes, there are also a lot of rubbish dads out there

I don't think its being a martyr or that it's related to dads all of the time. I think it's just that we like things done a certain way and don't want to come home to have to reorganize things again plus you don't want to leave the person with the kids to loads of work, especially if it's the weekend. Dh is better at cleaning and cooking than I am

I don’t think what you’ve described is ‘mum guilt’ - and tbh I think that comes from other mums.

Mummy martyrdom is definitely shored up by lazy and incompetent men, but quite often it’s from internal expectations which are fed by not having trust in your partner.

I find the typical partner of a selfish man is a codependent woman. The woman often becomes controlling and anxious because the man does fuck all to support her or meet her needs and the man is incompetent and usually a completely disengaged parent as well as husband. In my experience it is this dynamic that breeds the situation in the OP.

This obviously varies from family to family but unfortunately a lot of men still seem to just expect everything to be laid out for them. There still seems to be little expectation that men will be able to do what are in fact very simple basic tasks. Many women cover everything because they don't want to come home to a shit show or be contacted every 5 minutes. There is a way around this however, don't answer your phone, show complete disbelief at how useless he was and tell everyone how crap your partner is at looking after his OWN children.

Personally I think a lot of the problems are that most men are inherently selfish. They put themselves first. It's not that they don't think children need endless tasks, play dates, play tables, they just don't really care and aren't interested as it doesn't interest them. They then get annoyed when the children need attention and stuff done for them.

@stayathomer

I don't think its being a martyr or that it's related to dads all of the time. I think it's just that we like things done a certain way and don't want to come home to have to reorganize things again plus you don't want to leave the person with the kids to loads of work, especially if it's the weekend. Dh is better at cleaning and cooking than I am

It depends what the things you "like done a certain way" are though.

DH does high % of the coordinating DC's lives (meals, laundry, homework reminders). Has done for 9 years. He sometimes prepares some vegetables for 1st evening meal, is all he'd do for me if he went away.

I still find plenty ways to feel parental guilt...

I used to do this - I made a rod for my own back! Now I don’t, and we have a more equal approach. He sorts childcare, Cubs, most things to do with school as he picks up. He also does all the washing. There are things I do above and beyond but that is through choice, not necessity. I think he gets the whole ’head space’ thing more now and appreciates me more even though I’m doing less.

To be fair, I think a lot of it is about control as well as martyrdom.

DH has recently diagnosed ADHD, and when the kids were younger I absolutely used to leave lists etc. as otherwise it was chaos - and the children were completely miserable.

I thought things had changed. However today (we are going on hol tomorrow, and need to clear out 2 rooms for decorators) I made everyone lists of things that need to be done so that we could all work out our days in the way we wanted, and still get to the end of the lists. DH fussed and harrumphed so much about 'his' list that I've just stepped back from the entire thing, and decided he can sort the whole thing out. Needless to say, nobody has done one single thing that needs to be done today, other than him and me...

IME martyrdom leads to useless husbands.

From the second many of my friends went on maternity leave they became control freaks about their DC. Exacerbated by going back to work PT or becoming SAHM and making their DH become the bread winner.

The relationship roles then shift and Mum of course becomes the default parent. Dad’s parenting is often complained about by Mum, my friends can spend hours whinging about their useless DH (who’s salary is the only reason they can be in Starbucks to bitch about them!)

I had a friend who recut carrot batons for her DC lunchbox because they were not uniform enough. Which sounds ridiculous but when she was moaning about his ugly carrot batons people were agreeing with her. Life’s too short!

Many women shield their men from the finer details of parenting because it is easier and quicker to do things themselves and because they like to feel like the superior parent. If a man is not given opportunity to parent his children independently then of course when he is asked to do it it probably won’t meet the standards of the person who is the main caregiver. Generally you need to be given the opportunity to do something to be able to do it well.

@Prudencia

Just seen on another thread that it is 'natural' for a woman to feel closer to her own mother and to stop PILS seeing their grandchildren except on a rare occasion and under sufferance. That it is 'natural' for mothers to act as gatekeepers for their children etc etc. There are lots of mothers on MN who moan about their husbands lack of involvement with their children but insist that interactions have to be run through the mother and that the father has to follow her instructions exactly etc etc. Roll on the day when some of these competitive martyr mothers let their partners parent their children in the way they think best. There are so many mothers on here who moan about doing everything but are so controlling with the fathers. Time to let go and enjoy the freedom that comes from giving some parenting autonomy to their children's Dads

Totally agree, so many women expect their husband/partner to 'support' them in everything by which they mean they should accept her decision in anything relating to the home and children. Hardly surprising that so many men don't cope well, they're not allowed to!

@ComtesseDeSpair I think that is very true

@ivykaty44

So many woman infantile their husbands, instead of just expecting them to parent

Allowing them to parent, not expecting them to. If you're constantly prevented from doing something you will give up bothering in the end.

@Pumperthepumper why do they need playdates ??I never did playdates every weekend or every week so why should a dad who is home with them for a weekend

@Pumperthepumper why not be with a partner who can do all this anyway before you have kids maybe
So many mums on here insist the routine is their way and the kids follow only the rules they make and dads don't get a say as they never birthed them etc
Yet then complain