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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Christian MIL taking DC to Christian toddler group - I was unaware

507 replies

AtheistMama · 06/04/2022 15:12

Name change for this one.

My MIL does childcare once a week for DS aged 3, for which I am grateful for - they have a great relationship, and obviously it saves us money on nursery fees.

My MIL is a lovely women, not a bad bone in her body. She is also devoutly Christian, belonging to an evangelical church. DH was brought up as an evangelical Christian, but is an atheist and slowly detached himself from their church in his young adulthood. There is no animosity from his mother and the wider family about this (who are mostly also evangelical Christians).

DH and I have been together for 10 years, married for 5, but I have never really talked to MIL about my religious beliefs because she is quite sensitive/easily upset and I didn't want to offend her. The status quo has just been that it is obvious to all that DH and I are not Christian and it's been left at that.

My understanding of DH's families beliefs is that they think everyone who is not baptised is going to Hell; they also do not approve of homosexuality or gay marriage, sex before marriage, etc. I am an atheist and do not subscribe to these beliefs. In particular, the idea that they believe that I am going to Hell bothers me when I think about it. In general, I am anti-organised religion and was never going to bring DS up in any religious way.

MIL takes DS to a toddler's group at her church every week, but I was under the impression that it was open to the whole community and therefore not Christian (I think this came from DH not my MIL). I looked up the group today (was wondering about the timings for a seperate reason), and clocked that they have a Bible story every week.

I'm feeling a bit annoyed because if I had known about the Bible story bit when it was first suggested that she take him (years ago), I would have gently asked her to pick another activity. But now he's been going for a few years, he loves it and it's part of their routine. She would probably be upset by being asked to stop going (and probably it didn't occur to her that I wouldn't be happy about it).

However, I feel really uncomfortable about the Bible story, and annoyed that she didn't say anything at the start. Needless to say, DS has never mentioned it, so it's possible that he's running around the hall and not even listening to it.

DH tends to skirt around issues with his DM that might be upsetting because he thinks she's quite delicate and feels protective about her.

AIBU to bring it up with her now?

OP posts:
saraclara · 08/04/2022 09:18

Yep, there really needs to be two different words. One for the absence of belief, and one for the rejection of belief.

RampantIvy · 08/04/2022 09:21

Yes, exactly @saraclara.

twentythreehundred · 08/04/2022 09:31

@saraclara

Yep, there really needs to be two different words. One for the absence of belief, and one for the rejection of belief.
I agree, I said that I am an atheist on this thread (which means that I have an absence of beliefs in deities) and that was the first time I'd said that about myself in any situation in probably 10 or so years.

I cringed a bit when I typed it, it sounds and feels archaic.

It doesn't sit well to define an aspect of oneself by an absence of belief.

WalkingOnTheCracks · 08/04/2022 09:32

@RampantIvy

The atheists I know (and unfortunately many atheists on mumsnet) are downright rude about people with religious beliefs.

It isn't just about not believing. They know that there isn't any God. They are derisive about believers and sneer at them for believing in fairy tales about a fictitious "friend".

I say this as an agnostic BTW (which to me means that I have an open mind)

I'm sorry that that's your impression of atheists. It's not all of us. I'm not derisive - I have friends and family who believe, and we get along well, though each thinks the other is mistaken.

But yes, I do know that there isn't any God, in the same way that I know that there's no Tooth Fairy. In other words, this isn't something I agonise over, or need to argue, because I can't see that the idea demands the effort.

For me, though, it's people's actions in the world that matter most, and I'm not overly-concerned as to what their ethical support is for those actions. If someone's a kind, generous, compassionate, happy person because they think that that's how God would like them to be, I may have a few questions about how that works philosophically and logically, but the important thing is the effect they have on the world around them.

Same goes for atheists.

FramptonRose · 08/04/2022 09:38

Just wanted to come on and say, I completely respect everyone has different views and beliefs, we are Catholic, my children go to Catholic schools and we attend Church.
I used to help run a toddler group for my church when my children were small, it was 2 and a half hours, lots of toys and crafts set up, singing time, fruit for the kids and tea and biscuits for parents at the end.
We asked for £1 donation per family.
I often spoke to parents who said we were their life line as any other non faith organised event for babies and toddlers where we live was extortionate and maybe an hour long, the only people that ran groups like us were other places of worship, so you have to ask yourself, if the places of worship stopped doing it, we would all be there paying a small fortune to a company to bring our kids somewhere and meet other mums.
As I say, I can't speak for other areas but where we live, the only place you could go for free or for a very small donation were places of worship, church halls etc.

saraclara · 08/04/2022 09:47

For me, though, it's people's actions in the world that matter most, and I'm not overly-concerned as to what their ethical support is for those actions. If someone's a kind, generous, compassionate, happy person because they think that that's how God would like them to be, I may have a few questions about how that works philosophically and logically, but the important thing is the effect they have on the world around them.

I absolutely agree. I married into an extended family whose faith is massively important to them. Some belong to evangelical churches, but they're not fundamentalist and they have never once tried to turn me to Jesus. They are, without exception, truly generous and warm people, who would give a stranger the shirt of their backs, and have taken people in need into their homes without a moment's judgment.
It's hard to separate personalities and faith, but I'm certain that their faith and natural warmth work together perfectly. I also work alongside some organisations that are faith based, and again, their work is exceptional and non-judgemental. So though I don't believe, I do judge people whose brand of atheism rejects and sneers at those who believe.

WalkingOnTheCracks · 08/04/2022 10:38

It's hard to separate personalities and faith

I think that personality precedes what you believe in.

In other words, if you're mean, selfish arsehole, you'll find justifications and support for being that way in whatever philosophy you subscribe to, whether it's Christianity, atheism, communism, capitalism or Marvel Comics. Though you're likely to go for the one that most readily coincides with the way you are.

This is why, whenever someone talks about their moment of revelation - the conversion to Christianity, or their embracing of atheism - and they say something like "Suddenly everything made sense. It explained how I've always felt," my reaction is, "Well, it might be that you'd happened upon a cosmic truth the unarticulated understanding of which had always been lurking somewhere in your heart. But it's much more likely that you'd come across a way of thinking that fitted well with your particular way of experiencing the world. Just because something subjectively suits you, that doesn't mean it's objectively true."

woodhill · 08/04/2022 14:46

@FramptonRose

Just wanted to come on and say, I completely respect everyone has different views and beliefs, we are Catholic, my children go to Catholic schools and we attend Church. I used to help run a toddler group for my church when my children were small, it was 2 and a half hours, lots of toys and crafts set up, singing time, fruit for the kids and tea and biscuits for parents at the end. We asked for £1 donation per family. I often spoke to parents who said we were their life line as any other non faith organised event for babies and toddlers where we live was extortionate and maybe an hour long, the only people that ran groups like us were other places of worship, so you have to ask yourself, if the places of worship stopped doing it, we would all be there paying a small fortune to a company to bring our kids somewhere and meet other mums. As I say, I can't speak for other areas but where we live, the only place you could go for free or for a very small donation were places of worship, church halls etc.
This is a good point
lolacherricoke · 08/04/2022 15:26

Just be thankful that she actually takes him out! As a aethist I have sent my children to a church school and whilst I do not believe, I do love the morals and kindness values they I still in the children. I am very honest with my boys about my views and I am leaving them to make their own choices as they get older. But the bible is just a group of stories about a man names Jesus. To believe them or not is a personal choice xxx

mathanxiety · 08/04/2022 19:11

@SirChenjins, if society were becoming more enlightened, we would be living in a paradise on earth today. We've been the dominant species on this planet for tens of thousands of years now. We know loads of stuff. Human nature does not improve. Some human behaviour can be modified, but it can be modified in the service of evil as well as good.

I don't care much for the views of the under 30 history teacher of DD4 whose classroom is festooned with posters staring TWAW, etc. We all encounter people whose beliefs we either don't know or might be shocked by, regardless of age. Eventually our children will come to their own conclusions and we might not agree with them either.

I personally believe it's important to model tolerance, even for views I don't agree with, so my DCs would never be kept away from anyone just on the basis that their expressed views are different from mine, all else being equal. Intolerance eventually leads to book burning and thought policing.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 10/04/2022 00:31

I drove past a soft play centre called Kingdom Come today. It made me chuckle and think of this thread. Maybe the MIL could be persuaded to take the child there instead?

123cupcake4 · 10/04/2022 02:54

We are Muslim and I went to a similar group with all mu kids over 9 years. My friend ran it who was atheist but because it was in a church they had to let the vicar read a story occasionally. Usually around Christmas or Easter. My kids are still Muslim. We talk about our own things at home. They also took part in the natovities and went to a c of e primary school. Don't worry about it.

Newhousesad · 10/04/2022 03:36

They’re just stories OP. I’m sure it’ll be fine and if anything could teach your little one about other religions when they’re old enough to understand x

SirChenjins · 10/04/2022 09:22

[quote mathanxiety]@SirChenjins, if society were becoming more enlightened, we would be living in a paradise on earth today. We've been the dominant species on this planet for tens of thousands of years now. We know loads of stuff. Human nature does not improve. Some human behaviour can be modified, but it can be modified in the service of evil as well as good.

I don't care much for the views of the under 30 history teacher of DD4 whose classroom is festooned with posters staring TWAW, etc. We all encounter people whose beliefs we either don't know or might be shocked by, regardless of age. Eventually our children will come to their own conclusions and we might not agree with them either.

I personally believe it's important to model tolerance, even for views I don't agree with, so my DCs would never be kept away from anyone just on the basis that their expressed views are different from mine, all else being equal. Intolerance eventually leads to book burning and thought policing.[/quote]
More enlightened does not equal paradise - but our views on what is acceptable and what we are prepared to tolerate improves. If you’re OK with your children being around adults who express homophobic views (or other extremely offensive views) then that’s your free choice, obviously. I would challenge those views and if they continued to express them in front of me and my family then I would not spend time in their company- which does not, of course, lead to book burning.

kmblark · 10/04/2022 16:57

@froufroufrou

YABU and evangelical yourself about your cherished atheism.
Well that doesn't make sense.
mathanxiety · 13/04/2022 23:41

...but our views on what is acceptable and what we are prepared to tolerate improves.

This is what the Puritans told themselves too, and the Confederate States, and the Romans heading off to watch gladiators doing battle.

My point is that there really is no objective starting point we can or should measure ourselves against and claim progress.

Tigertigertigertiger · 13/04/2022 23:46

Don’t fret. Bible stories are fab !

Peepo80 · 13/04/2022 23:54

I think it's harmless. Our church does one and it is a 2 minute religious type song, a 5 minute story with a moral to it (not too Bible bashing and not preaching) and then lots of play.

We even go to the church coffee morning even though we're not religious. They don't shove it in our faces.

When they ask about my DH, we usually say "oh, we're not married, we like to live in sin" and most of them usually take it with good humour Grin

Peepo80 · 13/04/2022 23:58

And my little ones go to a church school. But we also teach them about how "some people believe this, others believe that and Mummy and Daddy believe the other. It's up to you to decide what you believe".

amoosee · 14/04/2022 13:43

I'd me more worried about het passing her homophobia on yo your children tbh

allthecrackers · 14/04/2022 17:28

@amoosee why homophobia? Christians aren't homophobic, only extremist ones. There are plenty of gay vicars and priests these days!

Hatinafield · 14/04/2022 17:52

[quote allthecrackers]@amoosee why homophobia? Christians aren't homophobic, only extremist ones. There are plenty of gay vicars and priests these days![/quote]
Seriously? The official position in the church of england is still against gay sex and marriage.

crepesncream · 14/04/2022 20:17

@amoosee

I'd me more worried about het passing her homophobia on yo your children tbh
What an odd comment. I don't know any homophobic Christians. Confused
crepesncream · 14/04/2022 20:19

Seriously? The official position in the church of england is still against gay sex and marriage

Similar to Islam then?

Hippoevens · 14/04/2022 20:20

I wouldn’t like that either. It’s very naive to think this is about a bible story. Brain washing is so subtle. Indoctrination is about playing the long game