Christian MIL taking DC to Christian toddler group - I was unaware

[AtheistMama]

Name change for this one.

My MIL does childcare once a week for DS aged 3, for which I am grateful for - they have a great relationship, and obviously it saves us money on nursery fees.

My MIL is a lovely women, not a bad bone in her body. She is also devoutly Christian, belonging to an evangelical church. DH was brought up as an evangelical Christian, but is an atheist and slowly detached himself from their church in his young adulthood. There is no animosity from his mother and the wider family about this (who are mostly also evangelical Christians).

DH and I have been together for 10 years, married for 5, but I have never really talked to MIL about my religious beliefs because she is quite sensitive/easily upset and I didn't want to offend her. The status quo has just been that it is obvious to all that DH and I are not Christian and it's been left at that.

My understanding of DH's families beliefs is that they think everyone who is not baptised is going to Hell; they also do not approve of homosexuality or gay marriage, sex before marriage, etc. I am an atheist and do not subscribe to these beliefs. In particular, the idea that they believe that I am going to Hell bothers me when I think about it. In general, I am anti-organised religion and was never going to bring DS up in any religious way.

MIL takes DS to a toddler's group at her church every week, but I was under the impression that it was open to the whole community and therefore not Christian (I think this came from DH not my MIL). I looked up the group today (was wondering about the timings for a seperate reason), and clocked that they have a Bible story every week.

I'm feeling a bit annoyed because if I had known about the Bible story bit when it was first suggested that she take him (years ago), I would have gently asked her to pick another activity. But now he's been going for a few years, he loves it and it's part of their routine. She would probably be upset by being asked to stop going (and probably it didn't occur to her that I wouldn't be happy about it).

However, I feel really uncomfortable about the Bible story, and annoyed that she didn't say anything at the start. Needless to say, DS has never mentioned it, so it's possible that he's running around the hall and not even listening to it.

DH tends to skirt around issues with his DM that might be upsetting because he thinks she's quite delicate and feels protective about her.

AIBU to bring it up with her now?

The key thing to remember if your religious beliefs are yours and in the long run your part of what will guide your son but you can’t decide for him. Learning about other religions and the beliefs of others is much more likely to lead to a rounded individual who can respect others views while still holding onto their own.

Ds was raised as Christian as I am but now at the age of 12 he has been atheist for many years and that is perfectly fine, because his views are his.

Yes, RE is about understanding different religions, but assemblies can actually teach a religion, unless the law has changed recently. I went to a normal state school, not a faith school and there were prayers every day and religious assembly with hymns and readings

My DCs schools didn’t/don’t have this. They teach RMPS which includes both religious belief systems and secular systems - certainly no prayers, hymns or readings at assemblies.

He's 3. He won't remember. He's not being indoctrinated.
They are just stories like any other stories that you read to him.
None of them are true. They are just entertaining stories.

My in-laws are staunch Catholics. My husband was born to Catholic parents, was practising Catholic and altar boy in childhood, now atheist. I'm Church of England, should anybody ask, but atheist with agnostic leanings.
In infant school, I remember a day when I was really scared because my teacher told me that God could see everything I did. When you're a very little kid, that sort of thing can scare you. I imagined some sort of big guy in the sky, watching me.
When I got home my older brother (older by 10 years) could see I was
withdrawn and scared (pretty spooked to be honest) and asked me what was wrong so I told him.

He told me that was rubbish and my teacher was daft and a bit weird.
Nobody was watching me, and if she said it again he would go and talk to her. He was 14 at the time. He actually does have a belief in God, but obvs didn't want his little sister scared shitless by an over zealous RE teachers claims that 'God Is Watching You'

Forty years later he still believes there is a God. I don't, but we get on OK despite that. As much as he always believed in God, he was angry and protective when I was a child, that a belief in a big man in the sky, watching you, was used to scare kids. That's not the God he has in mind.

Don't be so utterly ridiculous! If your DH grew up in this devoutly religious family and became an atheist, how on earth do you imagine one Bible story a week is going to indoctrinate your 3 year old??

Your lovely MIL is saving you childcare fees and taking your child to an activity he enjoys, put on by kindly people for the community's benefit, and you object to them reading a Bible story!

If it really is such an issue that you feel you need to raise it with her, you should make other arrangements for your childcare. After all, she's a Christian woman: your DS is being exposed to Christianity for a whole day not just at the toddler group!

I wouldn't worry, all they will remember is the toys and a snack. At 5 it would be different! A lot of schools are faith in our area so I think you will either be lucky to avoid this in the future or gave to work round it.

put on by kindly people for the community's benefit,

Put on by religious fundamentalists who further hate thinking in the community

Well i am assuming your not in an area where 'aethiests' have to play the game and take their DC to sunday school every sunday to access the local good school? The sheer numbers of non believers reappear to get their DC into the sought after school is shocking.

As someone who was brought up to believe and went to sunday school etc it has allowed me to have a balanced opinion around religion. I remember with fondnest my sunday school sessions

@twentythreehundred

put on by kindly people for the community's benefit,

Put on by religious fundamentalists who further hate thinking in the community

Do you really think that at a toddler group

Wait til your DC goes to primary school - I was unaware that even 'secular' state schools are required by law to hold a 'daily act of worship'.

It actually turned my stomach a bit to see my kids (who I brought up to think for themselves) being told by those trusted to teach them actual facts, that they should pray to God every morning.

@twentythreehundred

put on by kindly people for the community's benefit,

Put on by religious fundamentalists who further hate thinking in the community

Oh, for crying out loud.

Yes, those hateful people who fill up the tea urn while toddlers throw mega blocks around and parents chat.

Should be outlawed.

I'm now an atheist. My mum is Christian and I went to a C of E primary school. We had Bible stories every day, some quite graphic tbh, looking back. I did spend an unhealthy amount of time worried I was going to hell, I used to pray every day out of fear.

I mostly avoid religion wherever possible, but not to extremes. Eg my girls went to Rainbows/Brownies - even though the religion bit has supposedly been removed - I knew it hadn't really - they still sing religious songs and say a short prayer, but it's not what I considered excessive or like they were trying to force their religion on the children. I also took my toddlers to a playgroup held in a church, there were no bible stories though, or hymns. Honestly bible stories probably would have freaked me out a bit, even though at that age they're mostly harmless.

Anyway, this would irritate me a bit, but I suppose it wouldn't come as a massive surprise as the playgroup is held in a church. How I felt about it would depend on if MIL had been sneaky about it? If she was intentionally using it as an opportunity to teach your DC about the religion Etc or she'd gone ahead and taken the DC to a religious activity after I'd specified not to.

I think it mostly sounds harmless, though, and a shame to stop it as they enjoy it and they'll probably be in school soon. But I'd want to make it clear to MIL that you'd prefer to avoid religious activities in the future.

@AtheistMama

My parents weren’t atheist, but they definitely were not church-going.
My grandmother was, however, very religious, and I remember staying with her and watching her read the Bible every single night. She never missed church a day in her life.
My parents had much more influence on me than my Nan, as much as I adored her.
And I have exactly one memory from when I was three - my birthday party.
I’m sure these Bible stories are just stories to your daughter, and harmless. I’d worry much more if she were an impressionable tween, and began hanging out with evangelical Christian tweens.
I treasured the time I had with my grandparents and nothing of my Nan’s religion ever rubbed off on me — probably to my detriment.

@QuizzlyBear

Wait til your DC goes to primary school - I was unaware that even 'secular' state schools are required by law to hold a 'daily act of worship'.

It actually turned my stomach a bit to see my kids (who I brought up to think for themselves) being told by those trusted to teach them actual facts, that they should pray to God every morning.

Fortunately not in every part of the UK.

I find it really sad that charity from a religious group is viewed with such suspicion. My church runs a group to meet a need in the community - isolated parents and some unable to afford other groups. There's no expectation people will come to other services and certainly no indoctrination.

The bible story is probably a minimal part after 2 hours of play and probably a snack. Your son will just remember a lovely time with his grandma. I respect your views but I don't think it's worth causing upset.

I went to a church playgroup and Sunday school at that age and didn't grow up religious at all. He'll be at school soon and presumably will sing hymns and learn about the bible. It's hard to escape Christian influence in our society. I don't think it makes any of us religious fundamentalists.

I don't want to melt your brain op buy you do realise she will be praying for your baby and your dh and you?

All the toddler groups are Christian around here because only the church congregations are nice enough to run a toddler group (thankless bloody task).

I took both of mine. The religious bits didnt take.

Wow, there's so much anti-faith sentiment on this thread. Some people really can't cope with the reality that globally and historically the vast majority of people have believed in some kind of God, and not everyone shares exactly the same liberal and secular viewpoint as you. I say that as a pretty wishy-washy C of E person who goes to church once in a blue moon and has zero opinion on others' religious beliefs or lack thereof. It's a really intolerant attitude.

All those church groups have a prayer or bible story or sing song don't they. You can't shield your child from religion because not everyone is an atheist, and religious education exists. I kind of wish my son had some pre school RE because now he's asking what god is and I have no idea how to explain that some people believe a big man in the sky (?!) rules over us. His grandfather takes him to the chapel every now and then like at Christmas to show him the nativity and I'm sure they're creating very special memories. It's a thread in the fabric of life.

Wow, there's so much anti-faith sentiment on this thread. Some people really can't cope with the reality that globally and historically the vast majority of people have believed in some kind of God, and not everyone shares exactly the same liberal and secular viewpoint as you.

People did and believed all kinds of things in the past that no sensible person believes or agrees with now. Just because the majority believes (or used to believe) something, that doesn't make it right or good. And the fact that these billions of religious people throughout history have disagreed with each other (and killed each other) over which deities existed doesn't exactly lend weight to either the existence of god(s) or the idea that we shouldn't be anti-faith.

I'm anti-faith. I can certainly 'cope' with the fact that most people through history were religious, but that doesn't mean that I have to like the fact that it's still so pervasive in our society and institutions, to the point that people sometimes have little choice but to send their dc to church schools even when practically none of the school children's families are churchgoers.

Being an atheist surely doesn't mean that you just don't acknowledge that religions exist, does it? Your child will also learn about different religions at school and become aware of them as he grows older and meets other people.
You're entitled to your beliefs but surely this is more about saying (if you so wish) "lots of religions exist and people believe different things such as what you see with grandma, however OUR family (i.e. you and dh) choose to believe this..."
you can't shield the child from the world

@Aspiringmatriarch

Wow, there's so much anti-faith sentiment on this thread. Some people really can't cope with the reality that globally and historically the vast majority of people have believed in some kind of God, and not everyone shares exactly the same liberal and secular viewpoint as you. I say that as a pretty wishy-washy C of E person who goes to church once in a blue moon and has zero opinion on others' religious beliefs or lack thereof. It's a really intolerant attitude.

I don't see anyone struggling to cope with the reality of other people's faith, at all. I do see posters saying that they would act to avoid their own children from being indoctrinated with what they regard as harmful ideologies and fictitious beliefs.

People can believe whatever they please, but they won't be telling my children that it's the truth. I don't think my taxes should be going to fund schools that peddle it either - that isn't education in my view - but that's another thread.

My best friend who I met at Sunday school in the 70s was sent there so his atheist parents could have a bit of child free time. He did not become a Christian.

@Fairislefandango thanks for replying. I understand your points but obviously as you say you're anti-faith that does rather confirm what I was saying. Whether you think nobody sensible could believe in religious teachings or not, the fact is a huge number do - today, not just historically. And of course you don't have to agree with that but I personally find it quite a dismissive attitude. I'm sure you're not unpleasant towards religious people in person though .
Christian schools are probably a bit of an anachronism now but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of indoctrinating children these days, and I think generally they teach good values and are a reflection of our cultural/religious heritage.

Christian schools are probably a bit of an anachronism now but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of indoctrinating children these days

Are you aware of the religious segregation in Govt funded education systems in parts of the UK? They’re doing quite a nice little trade in indoctrination.

I’m sure you’re aware that historically, religion was a way of controlling the uneducated or poorly educated masses (esp women) and that to step outside of it was nigh on impossible. For many, it’s the same today.