Christian MIL taking DC to Christian toddler group - I was unaware

[AtheistMama]

Name change for this one.

My MIL does childcare once a week for DS aged 3, for which I am grateful for - they have a great relationship, and obviously it saves us money on nursery fees.

My MIL is a lovely women, not a bad bone in her body. She is also devoutly Christian, belonging to an evangelical church. DH was brought up as an evangelical Christian, but is an atheist and slowly detached himself from their church in his young adulthood. There is no animosity from his mother and the wider family about this (who are mostly also evangelical Christians).

DH and I have been together for 10 years, married for 5, but I have never really talked to MIL about my religious beliefs because she is quite sensitive/easily upset and I didn't want to offend her. The status quo has just been that it is obvious to all that DH and I are not Christian and it's been left at that.

My understanding of DH's families beliefs is that they think everyone who is not baptised is going to Hell; they also do not approve of homosexuality or gay marriage, sex before marriage, etc. I am an atheist and do not subscribe to these beliefs. In particular, the idea that they believe that I am going to Hell bothers me when I think about it. In general, I am anti-organised religion and was never going to bring DS up in any religious way.

MIL takes DS to a toddler's group at her church every week, but I was under the impression that it was open to the whole community and therefore not Christian (I think this came from DH not my MIL). I looked up the group today (was wondering about the timings for a seperate reason), and clocked that they have a Bible story every week.

I'm feeling a bit annoyed because if I had known about the Bible story bit when it was first suggested that she take him (years ago), I would have gently asked her to pick another activity. But now he's been going for a few years, he loves it and it's part of their routine. She would probably be upset by being asked to stop going (and probably it didn't occur to her that I wouldn't be happy about it).

However, I feel really uncomfortable about the Bible story, and annoyed that she didn't say anything at the start. Needless to say, DS has never mentioned it, so it's possible that he's running around the hall and not even listening to it.

DH tends to skirt around issues with his DM that might be upsetting because he thinks she's quite delicate and feels protective about her.

AIBU to bring it up with her now?

Jesus H - literally - its a fucking toddler group.

I'm an atheist working in Catholic church charities. I do it as I know good work done by good people when I see it. Many of my colleagues aren't Christians, but we all share the common goal of working for the community. I certainly agree that if you decided to take your kids to Sunday school for example then things get a bit more insidious, but to suggest that pre-schoolers are indoctrinated with milk and biscuits on the carpet is batshit.

@twentythreehundred

What is astonishing is how willing people are to believe that Christians can't be radicalised and don't understand the real beliefs of Christian fundamentalism.

Christians can be radicalised. And it starts and is perpetuated at churches like the one the OP is describing.

And the OP is, in effect, supporting a radicalised church by allowing their DC to attend a group there. Whether or not a 3 year old could be indoctrinated is kind of a moot point. Nobody knows the actual stories being taught, most are speculating that the stories would be the equivalent of RE school stories. That is unlikely given the beliefs of this group.

These are the types of groups that bomb abortion clinics, and resort to violence in the name of Jesus and in the name of Christianity. Believe it or not, it is still happening and these fringe groups should not be supported.

The Christians in the OPs post would not accept that CofE people or Catholics are true Christians, they are not tolerant of other religions. That is the foundation of radicalisation

Er, you don't know it's not CofE.

Pkenty of evangelical CofE churches.

I've been an evangelical Anglican for twenty years and I can promise you I've never bombed an abortion clinic in my life.

Yes, evangelicalism is a call to radicalism. To radical love, radical service, radical social justice.

But you'll have to excuse me, must dash - I'm just off to bomb my second abortion clinic this week.

@twentythreehundred

Do you base most of your information and opinion on US evangelical churches or UK ones?

Most of my opinion is based on personal affiliations/work with people who help other people (usually women) trying to leave fundamentalist Christian groups in the U.K. Some need exit counselling, some are fleeing what would be called DV (but also can be called religious abuse)

I didn't see this. I'm familiar with some extremely fundamentalist groups, sadly - women in skirts and in the home, children physically punished, heavy shepherding - if the MiL belonged to one of those, there would, in my experience, be some animosity. But even they would be perplexed at the idea of bombing anyone.

I'm surprised that you don't know the difference between evangelical and fundamentalism, and a bit concerned.

@Chouetted I did not actually say that abortion clinics had been bombed and regret including that in my post. I fail to see any humour in your statement though. Or any radical love for that matter.

But perhaps your type of radical love includes making hyperbolic statements about bombing your fellow citizens.

I suspect this thread will eventually be deleted.

I'm surprised that you don't know the difference between evangelical and fundamentalism, and a bit concerned.

Concerned about what?

If you think I am lacking in understanding, I welcome your elucidation.

if the MiL belonged to one of those, there would, in my experience, be some animosity.

Not all groups that are overtly oppressive practice shunning.

[quote twentythreehundred]@Chouetted I did not actually say that abortion clinics had been bombed and regret including that in my post. I fail to see any humour in your statement though. Or any radical love for that matter.

But perhaps your type of radical love includes making hyperbolic statements about bombing your fellow citizens.

I suspect this thread will eventually be deleted.[/quote]
Apologies - I tend to be facetious, and yes, hyperbolic. And also, apologies - i did misread your post as saying that evangelicals in the UK actively bomb abortion clinics (or planning to).

Shunning? For goodness sake. Talk about projection .
I imagine PP meant that with such extreme and militant views it would be very unlikely they would enjoy a pleasant relationship.

@Brainwave89

I would ask to see more of what the Toddler group is doing. Some basic David and Goliath, Noah's Ark bible study will do little harm, but as soon as anyone starts saying same sex couples are wrong, only people who are married should have babies etc then it would be time to call a halt. I also grew up in quite a religious household and it can be potentially dangerous. One of the boys at my Church was clearly gay and the pressure placed on him was so significant he finished up sectioned. Even now his mental health is poor, and the same risks apply to other groups who may not agree with Christians see as the one version of the truth. Your MIL may be lovely but I would be careful.

You really think they will be discussing same sex couples at a toddler group?

@Brainwave89

I would ask to see more of what the Toddler group is doing. Some basic David and Goliath, Noah's Ark bible study will do little harm, but as soon as anyone starts saying same sex couples are wrong, only people who are married should have babies etc then it would be time to call a halt. I also grew up in quite a religious household and it can be potentially dangerous. One of the boys at my Church was clearly gay and the pressure placed on him was so significant he finished up sectioned. Even now his mental health is poor, and the same risks apply to other groups who may not agree with Christians see as the one version of the truth. Your MIL may be lovely but I would be careful.

You really think they will be discussing same sex couples at a toddler group?

I heard bible stories at school. I'm an atheist. They are just stories like Christmas and Easter.

@twentythreehundred

I'm surprised that you don't know the difference between evangelical and fundamentalism, and a bit concerned.

Concerned about what?

If you think I am lacking in understanding, I welcome your elucidation.

I don't want to bore you to death with theological minutae, but evagelicalism is a theological position that centralises the bible, a personal relationship with God, and social activism. It's poorly defined, but the Bebbington quadrilateral is usually quoted - biblicentrism, crucicentrism, conversionism and activism. In general, it's part of the reaction against the excesses of the Catholic church, that generally formed the Reformation.

There are widespread evangelical contingents in many mainstream denominations. The Methodist Church, for example, is evangelical. There are even evangelical Catholics, although I've never quite understood how they managed that. You'll find a wide range of theological positions amongst them, but in the UK, they are usually politically liberal, even when theologically conservative.

Fundamentalism is religion that tends towards extremism or biblical literalism, regardless of the theological position. These include the groups you mention, but also other, non-evangelical groups.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Shunning? For goodness sake. Talk about projection . I imagine PP meant that with such extreme and militant views it would be very unlikely they would enjoy a pleasant relationship.

Yes, I think shunning (although it does happen in the U.K.) was too strong a word for what the poster was referring to. Some high demand religious groups don't practice shunning because the groups are small and need the converts/members, so they espouse the view that leavers are always welcome back into the fold.

Thank you @Chouetted for your explanation, what you write is exactly my understanding. My apologies for the conflation of evangelism with fundamentalism- my views are heavily biased by my experiences. Accuracy is always a good thing.

I don't find it boring as it is important to have a clear understanding when working with and/or supporting (mostly) women and children fleeing high demand religious groups.

Can I just point out again that we're talking about a toddler group? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the kinds of groups you're discussing aren't the ones running local toddler groups.

@twentythreehundred

Thank you *@Chouetted* for your explanation, what you write is exactly my understanding. My apologies for the conflation of evangelism with fundamentalism- my views are heavily biased by my experiences. Accuracy is always a good thing.

I don't find it boring as it is important to have a clear understanding when working with and/or supporting (mostly) women and children fleeing high demand religious groups.

Thanks, I'm glad we were able to find agreement.

The conflation particularly bothers me because it tends to lead to negative consequences, where people assume views I do not possess. I could never run as a politician (not that I'd want to...), I'd just get interrogated on my views on gay sex, Trump and creationism. I feel similarly locked out of teaching, EDI work, ecetera.The US evangelicals have stolen the media attention, and rarely does anyone bother to differentiate between stereotype and reality.

If it helps OP, think about the Bible stories they are likely to be discussing. All I can think of have a human/moral element to them ands that's likely to be what the discussion/point of the story centers around

@TheKeatingFive

Noah's ark taught as a fairy tale is very different from being taught that God will fully killed all the people on the earth due to their sinful nature and literally saved a handful of people in an ark.

The child is three. For the love of god.

...or someone else.

The conflation particularly bothers me because it tends to lead to negative consequences, where people assume views I do not possess. I could never run as a politician (not that I'd want to...), I'd just get interrogated on my views on gay sex, Trump and creationism. I feel similarly locked out of teaching, EDI work, ecetera.The US evangelicals have stolen the media attention, and rarely does anyone bother to differentiate between stereotype and reality.

Oopps. Posted too soon - was going to also reply that I can further understand your concerns about my posts because of my theological ignorance- however, I do not undertake any type of exit counselling or engage directly in theological discussions with people leaving Christian fundamentalism.

And I don't know the particulars of the religions (such as the names of the groups or specific churches) because anonymity is important because many leavers fear retaliation/ harassment - even if that fear isn't based in reality, they often feel it.

@Nicholethejewellery

I don't see a big deal with what she's doing. If you don't believe the Bible is an accurate history of the world then it would do your child no more harm hearing one than him hearing any other fictional children. I mean there's some violent material in the Bible but I doubt that's what they're teaching young children, anyway most fairy stories have some kind of violence or other serious criminality in them (Hansel & Gretel, the Pied Piper, The Three Bears etc).

I find these sentences interesting:
I am an atheist and do not subscribe to these beliefs. In particular, the idea that they believe that I am going to Hell bothers me when I think about it.

If you believe they are wrong, what does it matter to you? If they're not trying to convert you, aren't calling you a sinner all the time, why does it matter if they believe something that millions of others do. It sounds like they're showing more tolerance to you than you are to them.

100% this.

Not every Christian wants to indoctrinate others at a playgroup. You may not believe, but your MIL does - and you need to be respectful of that. Your son growing up to be aware of faith is a good thing.

An introduction to the mythologies of various religions is distinctly different than the presentation of any one of those mythologies as having any basis in reality.

When we read children a story like Hansel and Gretel, we are teaching children not to wander off and not to trust strangers. There is a lesson in the story hidden among the gingerbread. At the same time, we assure the child the witches aren’t real and no one is going to eat them.

I have never heard the same assurances offered to children about a god who killed almost everyone by flooding the earth. There is no reminder at the end not to worry because it’s just a story. There are no assurances that it’s not possible to have brought two of every animal on a boat and there aren’t really capricious gods who murder people.

My husband is atheist and our children go to chirch of England schools where they study the bible.

We teach them that the bible is “beliefs” and that all religions have beliefs and ours are that science answered a lot of those questions, but we respect all religions.

I’m quite spiritual but my husband isn’t. We use schools teachings to just show them how wide spanning beliefs are.

Your son growing up to be aware of faith is a good thing

Faiths - plural. And non-faiths of course. Unfortunately this particular church playgroup is doing neither - it’s teaching one particular belief system above all others through the medium of storytelling. It’s how we introduce children to all manner of things we want them to believe in.

One of the benefits of Sunday School and being brought up in the church, is that it makes doorstep conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses a lot of fun.

"As scripture tells us in John14:6..."

"Well, yeah, but given the necessarily judgemental nature of every religion, I think that Matthew6:14-15 muddies the waters a bit."

"Erm...hang on..."

"...Take your time."

I keep Jehovah's Witnesses at the door for hours. I consider it a service to the neighbourhood.