To be furious mum is alone in hospital?

[EmmaH2022]

I know I'm not
Mum is in a hospital corridor going into hour 6 after a suspected heart attack
They wouldn't let me go with her
Did they inject everyone with insanity?
She's 83.

I should be worried that she's going to die, but something about dying on a trolley gives me the RAGE. I wish I'd been here. I would never have let them take her to the hospital. I could at least have tried a private one.

No one answers the phone at the hospital obviously.

What happens if i just turn up in the morning?

I don't think she had a heart attack. I think the same vortex of medical crazy that made me have every organ checked for cancer - for no reason, while people with actual lumps were probably on waiting lists - was in full swing in her case too
^
What do you mean by this?
Surely your Mother was told she'd either had an MI or not? Or are you implying both you and your Mother are hypochondriacs ?

@caecilius1

I don't think she had a heart attack. I think the same vortex of medical crazy that made me have every organ checked for cancer - for no reason, while people with actual lumps were probably on waiting lists - was in full swing in her case too ^ What do you mean by this? Surely your Mother was told she'd either had an MI or not? Or are you implying both you and your Mother are hypochondriacs ?

The whole thing is bullshit !

Oh fuck that. After bo-jo and his cronies having absolutely had a party and god knows what else during the toughest of covid restrictions they can get fucked if they think I’d leave my mother alone under these circumstances!!

The most vulnerable should be vaccinated and frankly we need to just get on with it. I know personally people who regret respecting the rules so much the first time around, I wouldn’t be making the same mistake twice.

I'm dropping with tiredness but just to clarify

I did get her discharged through proper processes

Re the suspected heart attack, they are going down a road that's partially new for me

No sign of heart attack on tests that were run, except for elevated enzymes that might indicate she had one, but they seem to have initially interpreted that it must have meant heart attack and that's their reasoning for keeping her overnight.

Discharge form said she was "monitored overnight". She wasn't attached to a machine though, so who knows. No one came to take her BP or anything till I turned up.

Urgent referral for echocardiogram and another test, I forget the name, have been given.

She had four friends here yesterday it seems, and she keeps saying "I couldn't refuse four people telling me to go to hospital, I wish you'd been here". I'm not sure I could have resisted four people either though!

I have also called 999 after she collapsed in the past, they did the right thing.

I'm going to sleep. Thanks all

40 hour wait for a bed at my local A&E. Doesn't help that GP surgeries are sending people there instead of doing their jobs locally.

So they are suspecting a heart attack so the paramedics did their job and took her in rather than leave her.

I understand you and your mum are frightened. Have you rang a&e front desk and spoke to the charge nurse and asked if u could be with her even if for a short time?

Just seen the latest post. Didn’t come up when I initially scrolled to the latest. Thank fully your mum is ok. ❤️

Why does lack of beds = poor care

Other than the obvious that the person needing treatment is on a trolly/chair there not as comfortable in a bed…

The hospital is staffed for the number of beds. So if your aiming for one nurse for 12 patients (which is rubbish anyway) and then you have a load of extra patients on trolleys/chairs you still only have that one nurse. Ditto doctors, HCAs, porters….there are barely enough staff for the correct number of patients there aren’t any for “extras”.

You also only have the number of drip stands and pumps and monitors you have number of beds so if you have more patients than beds you don’t have any kit to look after them with. Can’t give a drip without a pump and stand. Can’t do a patients obs without a monitor (and due to covid they also have to be scrubbed between patients which slows changeover down).

(I remember last summer due to an “incident” it had been made policy that drips were only to be given with pumps rather than the old gravity fed method (it’s more accurate to use a pump). Problem was whomever made this policy didn’t then ensure there were enough pumps (or couldn’t buy them due to scarce resources). Had a dehydrated patient. I prescribed fluids. Couldn’t find a pump. Nurse said she couldn’t put up the fluids without a pump as was against policy. I said sod it and went and put them up as patient was sick. And then went and wrote an essay in the notes justifying my actions. Nurse completed an incident form against me for breaking policy. I was able to defend myself using my notes but was told NEVER to do it again.)

Legally it’s a lot safer to not do an action than do an action improperly. Legally not putting up the fluids as no pump was more correct than putting them up without a pump. If a doctor or nurse hasn’t “seen” a patient there not responsible for their outcome. Prescribing fluids and pain relief for a patient I have not assessed fully is poor practice and I would be struck off/prosecuted if patient harmed. If however a patient comes to harm while waiting to be seen I am not legally responsible. The trust might be but not me. Unfortunately the legal system long ago said that “busy” conditions are not a defence to cutting corners - so you can’t just prescribe fluids and analgesia for a patient while they wait - you need to assess them fully, ensure they have proper monitoring and delivery kit etc….anything else could be negligent. It’s safer to do nothing than do something badly.

The whole system needs an over hall - starting with the way medical malpractice is managed.

(If not “in” a bed on the computer system I can’t order any tests for a patient- if we run out of beds we have to spend ages hacking the computer to care for patients it thinks don’t exist)

Lots of discussions previously in medical circles (after the BawaGaba case) about what to do on badly staffed shifts. We are told we have a professional duty to raise concerns and not work in unsafe manner. (She was a junior doctor convicted of manslaughter after a patient died in her care when she was working a very understated shift (her boss who should have been responsible didn’t turn up) after a years maternity absence with no refresher training and with a non functioning computer system so couldn’t access patient results. She was prosecuted but her boss who didn’t turn up or the hospital that didn’t staff she shift correctly were not (she was also brown and wears a headscarf and they were white)

Essentially conclusion was that if you turn up to a massively understaffed shift and you continued to work it YOU could be held culpable for anything that went wrong because by working you were agreeing that the conditions were safe. Advice was to turn round and walk out if you didn’t want to go to prison. Clearly this would then mean the poor patients have no doctor rather than an overstretched one…..

At the start of the pandemic the GMC said it would not peruse doctors who worked in overstretched areas for the duration of covid (rather than the walk out position) which has helped to keep staff in place - but I’m sure this won’t last. I’m tired and fed up and it’s been three very long years (and now I’ve got covid again) and if I think I may go to prison for trying to help somewhat in this current shitshow I’m out.

Understaffed not understated shift

@AnAverageMum

Oh fuck that. After bo-jo and his cronies having absolutely had a party and god knows what else during the toughest of covid restrictions they can get fucked if they think I’d leave my mother alone under these circumstances!!

The most vulnerable should be vaccinated and frankly we need to just get on with it. I know personally people who regret respecting the rules so much the first time around, I wouldn’t be making the same mistake twice.

Absolutely agree with this, and I won't be making that mistake again either.

I'm relieved that I saw the light by the second lockdown and went to look after my parents when needed. If I hadn't, and had continued to try and follow Covid rules I would never have seen my Dad alive again. As it was I did get to spend about 3 days with him while he was still at home. A very hard three days, but three days nonetheless.

Never again will I ever listen to a government which tries to tell me not to visit vulnerable elderly relatives. If my elderly mother has to go into hospital then I will definitely challenge anyone who tries to tell me I cannot be there to ensure she is taken care of.

Never, ever again.

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@chuffoff if hospitals could be trusted perhaps some of the Ockenden recommendations wouldn't be necessary. Ockenden didn't happen due to lack of resources; it happened due to incompetent and poor care- as happened in East Kent and decades ago Bristol. Does that not strike you as worse than hospital employees having to pitch in?

Like a pp, we also have a home in France. There is not much difference between GDP in the UK and France. The difference in standards is extraordinary and in France's favour.

The UK issue is that because the NHS is "free" a culture of worship has been curated where those who worknfor the NHS behave as though patients are nothing more than supplicants who should be grateful for sub optimal care.

Vive la revolution.[/quote]
General statements like this are untrue and insensitive. I work my arse off every day without a break in any day, have annual leave cancelled due to staff shortage. Every one of my colleagues does exactly the same. The staff you mention are not me or anyone I work with .
So maybe you could rephrase to “the NHS staff that I have had contact with”
That perhaps would give a less biased opinion.

My mum is also in A&E. Nobody answers phone and you have to ring at 8.30 to book an appointment. Only one visitor at a time so not helpful they don’t answer when you’re working. No kids allowed obvs but that makes weekend visits even harder. Package of care taken ages to get otherwise she’d have been home a week ago. Nobody rings me even though I’ve been asking for a doctor to explain why she is in. It’s so scary she might die alone, totally feel for you. Yes they’re doing their best but it’s even more stressful than usual just now. I can barely sleep.

@giggly. Very well, the HCP's I have come across have on the whole behaved reprehensively. It doesn't alter the fact that that isn't my experience when we are in France rather than when we are in Surrey. For times out of five in the UK hospital staff in my experience have been rude, uncaring and barely competent. The same goes for my mother in Kent. It doesn't actually for my MIL in Yorkshire. Manners cost nothing and every time moving forward a nurse raises their voice or a Dr speaks to me like shit I call it out now and ask them who they think they are speaking to. Invariably the response is "this is the NHS and it's free". Well actually it isn't.

RosesandHellebores my experience as well accept at a well known London teaching hospital, but we can’t all go there. My local hospital is notorious.

No toast is available for ‘elf and safety’ reasons. Just a scraping of spread on stale bread. Funny how hotels and even prisons manage to have toasters that you put bread in and amazingly toast comes out. Now the NHS wards though far too much trouble.

The NHS is obsessed with its own sense of self importance and strangled in red tape. It urgently needs redefining and restructuring so it's sustainable, accountable and patient focused. Yes, patients and their relatives need to be accountable for their own behaviour towards healthcare staff, but equally, staff need to stop treating patients and relatives as though they're stupid and a nuisance.

We don't need to adopt an awful American system, we can examine other European models to see how they work.

I remember being going to A&E years ago. While the wait time wasn't an issue then, the attitude of some staff members and the lack of communication was. I was given a blood gasses test and nothing was explained to me, I was led to believe it was a normal blood test. At that point I didn't like needles but thanks to that I now have a full blown phobia.

I had a reaction to the antibiotics I was given and when I told the nurse I was told it wasn't possible, and that it was because I was upset. Too fucking right I was upset, my vision had changed and no one believed me!

I had to go for an ultrasound and, because it was a Sunday no one knew if it was going to be that day or the following day. I was on a female only ward and DH wasn't allowed to stay with me, which I have no problem with at all. However he wasn't allowed to wait outside to find out if I was having the scan. I was taken in a wheelchair by a man I didn't know to a part of the hospital that was to all intents and purposes closed. He could have waited in the corridor outside the ward and I could have sent him a text to say yes or no.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

The NHS is obsessed with its own sense of self importance and strangled in red tape. It urgently needs redefining and restructuring so it's sustainable, accountable and patient focused. Yes, patients and their relatives need to be accountable for their own behaviour towards healthcare staff, but equally, staff need to stop treating patients and relatives as though they're stupid and a nuisance.

We don't need to adopt an awful American system, we can examine other European models to see how they work.

I don't think that the NHS is 'obsessed with its own sense of self importance'. It's been given that untouchable god-like status by many of the public. You just have to read threads on here where radical change is suggested and it's immediately shot down as either privatisation or as awful as America.

Completely agree with you about looking at European models. I've had experience of one, and it's head and shoulders above the NHS. It costs more though, both in public spending and in optional top up payments by employers and/or individuals.

Even the offering of some services by private companies isn't that black and white. I can think of one community health service which has actually been improved by private input - routine sexual health testing can be done online and then by post at home without ever visiting a clinic. That's had really good results in our area, and is fast, private and efficient. Of course I'm not advocating every service being privatised, or even for the tendering process to continue in the ridiculous way it currently does for some NHS services, but an open minded flexible approach.

Sadly I don't think the NHS can just carry on as it is, even if investment increased hugely. As someone who's worked in the NHS for many years, I don't think it's working well enough for its patients and clients any more. That's not blaming staff by the way, they're under intense pressure, but we need a system that works and doesn't leave the OP's or mother on a trolley.

I don’t feel equipped to comment on how to make the NHS work from a financial point of view, but I do think that anything that involves caring is hugely undervalued in society. (See also childcare, teaching) A hospital will pay thousands for a cancer drug, but not ensure that the patient taking it is fed properly on the ward. I think that is because what gets measured gets done, and taking time with patients is regarded as inefficient.

Conversely there is huge wastage in private hospitals - facilities and services unused and underused - but that means that services are available when needed.

@BattenbergdowntheHatches

Many staff havent returned from the previous strains and we are seeing staff off unwell for several weeks with this strain

Isn't it interesting how lengthy Covid absences appear to correlate with extremely generous sick pay? No long Covid at all in my private sector multinational. Funny that.

I'm retired so sick pay isn't an issue. I've been ill for almost six weeks, covid turned into pneumonia and I've now got suspected broken ribs from coughing. Waiting to hear if I can go to hospital for xray. Funny that.

@Qazwsxefv - excellent posts.

@EmmaH2022

I'm dropping with tiredness but just to clarify

I did get her discharged through proper processes

Re the suspected heart attack, they are going down a road that's partially new for me

No sign of heart attack on tests that were run, except for elevated enzymes that might indicate she had one, but they seem to have initially interpreted that it must have meant heart attack and that's their reasoning for keeping her overnight.

Discharge form said she was "monitored overnight". She wasn't attached to a machine though, so who knows. No one came to take her BP or anything till I turned up.

Urgent referral for echocardiogram and another test, I forget the name, have been given.

She had four friends here yesterday it seems, and she keeps saying "I couldn't refuse four people telling me to go to hospital, I wish you'd been here". I'm not sure I could have resisted four people either though!

I have also called 999 after she collapsed in the past, they did the right thing.

I'm going to sleep. Thanks all

Probably an angiogram and by removing her from hospital she will have gone on the waiting list as opposed to getting one in the next few days .

Plain not an angio, just a 24 hour heart rate and BP monitor.

They confirmed they weren't doing an angio before we left.

Like I said, they gave full permission and proper discharge. I just don't know how long that would have been if I hadn't gone in.

She is 83. Her own priority now, as with the last two times when she was younger (!), is to be kept out of hospital. I just feel so guilty I wasn't able to prevent the admission.

She couldn't work the vending machine, she asked for water and no one brought it but then she found the loo filthy and tried not to drink.

I was shown to a visitors loo which was fine!!

She ended her night comforting a young lady who couldn't stop crying, understandably.

She is clean and fed and warm and watching a quiz show after we had lots of cuddle time. Visitors tomorrow. She is very upset about it all though.

PS we have PofA and she has reiterated her DNR, no pacemaker etc etc.

We know all this but the paramedics have to tell her to go or they'll get sued.

I think it's time she told her friends so we don't end up having this again.