… to wonder why people continue having more children if they cannot cope with the ones that they already have?

[NetflixMom21]

… or am I just being extremely judgemental?

A couple of recent interactions and conversations with people that I know has got me thinking about this. In one situation; the person in question already has a couple of children plus a couple of stepchildren which they have 50% of the time, they are always complaining of having no money, they have openly said that they max out their credit cards to survive and pay their bills every month and are in a lot of debt because of it… now they have just announced that they are having another child.

In the second situation; the person in question has 5 children. The first child was born with a severe disability and they were told that it could possibly be genetic and that if they had anymore children, those children could have a disability too. The second child was also born with a disability, but not as severe as the first. The person then went onto having 3 more children, of which, another child has a similar disability to the first 2. So 3 out of 5 children are disabled. This person now admits that they are unable to cope and it massively impacts on the care that they are able to give their children.

In the third situation; someone that I know was born with cystic fibrosis (they are the first born child of the family). They nearly died as a young child and was only just about saved by a lung transplant which they were incredibly lucky to get. The parents have gone on to have more and more children, even though they know that they have the gene for cystic fibrosis and any child that they have may be born with it too and after watching how badly their first child has suffered. Well another child has been born with it, and suffers horrendously already (they are reception/year 1 age) and unless they receive a lung transplant, they might not even make it to a teenager.

My own situation; I have a progressive disability myself and also a child that has a disability. I know that I will never have anymore children (I am looking into surgical procedures to ensure this) because I know that firstly, I will not be able to cope with my own illness and that is not fair on the child especially as I know that there is a possibility of me having another child with a disability, and secondly; I do not know how much independence my child will go onto have as a teenager and adult, and if I had another child, it would impact on the level of care that I am able provide for my child and that isn’t fair on them.

AIBU to wonder why people in these situations continue having more and more children rather than focusing on the ones that they have, and then constantly complain of being unable to cope?!

@Pyri
As a society we are responsible for others, so we are allowed an opinion on what they do.
This is already happening. For example a child benefit cap of 2 kids. That’s an opinion.
Nobody says ‘you shouldn’t have so many children’ but policy is designed with that implied.

I don’t agree with all of it. The hoops people have to jump through, disability payments etc are all clearly not enough and should be increased. But equally people should be made to think about the quality of life they can give their children. Because we will end up picking up the pieces, and we care about it them. Poverty doesn’t mean kids have a bad quality of life. Loving parents etc can make things work. My own grandparents couldn’t read and didn’t even having running water, all their children are doing well. Even in U.K. committed parents work teo joba, opposite hours etc. It’s really not the same

I don't think you're being judgemental, but the responses to your question are giving you the answer.

Procreation is seen as a human right and any suggestion that some situations are probably not great to bring a child into is seen as the height of offence.

It makes sense though. Any species that wasn't blindly optimistic about procreation would die out pretty quickly.

@ABitBesottedWithMyDog

Some people's religious beliefs don't allow them the luxury of either contraception or abortion.

Some are raped within the marriage.

Some may be unable to plan for the future, connect cause and effect, and so on.

Some may feel life is hard enough already. Why not add another? If you have five, six doesn't seem so unthinkable.

Some really like being pregnant and having a baby.

Some have a romanticised idea of life in a big family with many happy siblings all looking after and playing with each other.

If your life is shit, a lovely baby probably seems like a good distraction.

Good answers.

My daughter is disabled. I’d have loved to have had more children but I know I couldn’t cope with a second disabled child and both would suffer more. The risks were just too high for me.

I supported a woman who has done similar to one in your OP, had a child who had a life limiting very rare genetic condition, then went on to refuse genetic counselling and have another against medical advice. I have no idea why she made that choice, and I don’t judge her for that, it’s her life. But when I see her posting about how hard it is, especially when she is complaining that the council are mucking about with the care packages they provide, I do wonder what she thought would happen. She knew the struggles she had with getting help for her first. And neither of her children are expected to live beyond their teenage years, I can’t imagine signing up for that sort of heartache a second time.

However, are the choices she made, they wouldn’t be my choices but I won’t judge her for them.

Allow them to deal with the consequences of their choices ...

That would be ideal, yes, if not for the fact that some expect everyone but them to deal with the consequences

And while "judgement" can be unhelpful in some circumstances, it's always seemed to me one of life's important capabilities. Perhaps what folk often mean is that it's all fine until it happens not to suit them?

TheArtfulBlogger But to answer your question - I asked the same to my mum when I was little and wondering why people in poor countries who were starving still had children. "To give them hope and something to love"
Sometimes this, the need for hope, or to have someone to love, sometimes to fill a need within themselves, sometimes through apathy, not acting to prevent rather than trying to have, sometimes they can't let go of the dream of what they thought their life or motherhood would be like, sometimes an abusive partner who won't use contraception. Sometimes it creeps up on you long after those decisions are made. If your DC are born close together SEN, disability, being overwhelmed, lack of support etc might not be obvious till you reach that point you struggle to go on. The reasons will be many and varied.

In our case we'd had our youngest before their was any inkling older siblings had SEN. I'd slowly slipped into doing 90% of the parenting over that time and didn't realise how little H was doing until I was struggling to cope with my own sudden illness and our DCs SEN.

The examples in your OP are much more extreme decisions, but whether you can understand them or not their will be reasons behind the behaviour. Sometimes the person doesn't know themselves why. My sister died, I struggled with not giving my DD a sister, I desperately wanted that to fix the trauma in my past. That's not why we had more DC, but I can understand how fiercely trauma can drive you. I know I'm reasonably aware of what is behind my feelings and needs, many people aren't, there's just the overwhelming need to do what your mind is telling you will fix things, will make you happy, will stop the empty feeling that's eating away at you. I try not to judge, but I would struggle with some of that.

I agree OP and don’t really get the ‘stop being so judgemental’ comments on this thread.

We’re humans, we live in societies and we all have opinions on how others live their lives. That’s entirely natural.

I bet a lot of the ‘don’t be so judgmental’ types would be the first to judge if someone buys a pet and then cannot look after it properly. As well as might. But when it comes to children it’s seen in a different light.

Reasons vary I’m sure. Maybe there is unfair judgement in many cases. Someone I know has 6 children, age gaps fairly small - 5 different fathers (one set of twins). I think to her having a baby is part of cementing a relationship, or like it’s just part of a relationship to try for a baby ASAP. Except it’s clearly not working, none of those relationships have lasted more than a few months after the baby is born. I do judge that negatively by the 5th time, I will happily admit. It’s selfish.

YANBU.

I judge, massively.

I'd also like to see the absent fathers chased more for maintenance payments, might make some of the useless layabouts "put something on the end of it", as Jeremy Kyle was so fond of saying.

I judge, and I don't feel remotely bad for doing so.

I wish more people started with the thought: would a child benefit from being brought into the world and raised by me? At the moment, too many people just go, I want babies, and my right to have them is more important than any other consideration. Society goes, oh yes, women want to have babies, it's biology, they should get to have babies as a human right and anyone saying otherwise is advocating eugenics or saying that only rich people should have kids.

Not judging a person for bringing dependant people into the world they can't care for and will fuck up is more important than the right of a child not to grow up in neglect and with abuse. That's not OK.

(And no, I don't accept the argument that it's better than never being born at all. That's a ridiculously low bar. I was born to people who didn't want kids and yet had two of them, then neglected and abused them, and was validated in doing so by wider society because parenting is haaaaaard. I would cheerfully have elected to not have to go through life trying to undo the damage that it did to me, whilst also dealing with increasingly capitalistic and apocalyptic social change. Really. I wouldn't know any different. I'd have been fine.)

Don't start me one of my high school peers who is 33 and has 8 kids, all from different dads, surnames changed 9 times and the eldest not even a teenager. Half of them have SEN, those without are basically having to be non-existant to her, and yet she's praised as a "supermum".

Anyway. I rambled. In short, YANBU.

@NetflixMom21

… or am I just being extremely judgemental?

A couple of recent interactions and conversations with people that I know has got me thinking about this. In one situation; the person in question already has a couple of children plus a couple of stepchildren which they have 50% of the time, they are always complaining of having no money, they have openly said that they max out their credit cards to survive and pay their bills every month and are in a lot of debt because of it… now they have just announced that they are having another child.

In the second situation; the person in question has 5 children. The first child was born with a severe disability and they were told that it could possibly be genetic and that if they had anymore children, those children could have a disability too. The second child was also born with a disability, but not as severe as the first. The person then went onto having 3 more children, of which, another child has a similar disability to the first 2. So 3 out of 5 children are disabled. This person now admits that they are unable to cope and it massively impacts on the care that they are able to give their children.

In the third situation; someone that I know was born with cystic fibrosis (they are the first born child of the family). They nearly died as a young child and was only just about saved by a lung transplant which they were incredibly lucky to get. The parents have gone on to have more and more children, even though they know that they have the gene for cystic fibrosis and any child that they have may be born with it too and after watching how badly their first child has suffered. Well another child has been born with it, and suffers horrendously already (they are reception/year 1 age) and unless they receive a lung transplant, they might not even make it to a teenager.

My own situation; I have a progressive disability myself and also a child that has a disability. I know that I will never have anymore children (I am looking into surgical procedures to ensure this) because I know that firstly, I will not be able to cope with my own illness and that is not fair on the child especially as I know that there is a possibility of me having another child with a disability, and secondly; I do not know how much independence my child will go onto have as a teenager and adult, and if I had another child, it would impact on the level of care that I am able provide for my child and that isn’t fair on them.

AIBU to wonder why people in these situations continue having more and more children rather than focusing on the ones that they have, and then constantly complain of being unable to cope?!

None of your business. And if you're fed up of them moaning just stop listening.

@TortugaRumCakeQueen

But to answer your question - I asked the same to my mum when I was little and wondering why people in poor countries who were starving still had children. "To give them hope and something to love"

I think you'll find, that those women had no access to Birth Control and had absolutely no choice as to whether they were subjected to sex and rape.

in some countries in the world STILL. Its thought necessary to have surviving children in order for there to be care and food in old age. In the first world and in many circustances I do agree. Regarding Cystic Fibrosis (and other genetic diseases) the NHS will provide IVF with pre implantation screening if the couple have no living unaffected children. Yes I know it may need to be fought for but it does exist. www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/e01-p-a.pdf

Cards on the table, I don't believe that anybody in the first world has a RIGHT to a child. Personally I am dubious about state funded conception assistance for otherwise healthy people. I am childless by circumstance. I know that pain so I think I am entitled to hold that view. I am definitely dubious about state funded support for large families but I do agree that 1 it may not have been needed when the chidren were born and 2 what can be done once the children are born?

This isn’t very nice. You’re being judgmental. You never really know what the individual circumstances or motives are for having a child.
Being a parent can be hard regardless of the situation, I hope I don’t have anyone like you in my life, who I confide in, who judges me like you have.
You know a lot of information so that would suggest you are quite close to them, maybe don’t be in their lives if you think so little of them.

@mam0918 I also have a disability and resent having a life forced on me that I'm now forced to "earn" in a workforce designed BY neurotypical people FOR neurotypical people because nobody owes me a living in this world I can't function in, even if I didn't ask or want it.

Everyone around me trying to force me to find ways to be like someone without my condition so I can forcefully fit in a box and earn my life the way society expects.

My brain isn't wired like everyone else's so I have to find ways to be like everyone else so I can survive in this world that wasn't designed for people with my condition.

I wouldn't mind if I had a physical disability then I could just be me but when you have a hidden disability you're expected to keep it hidden find ways to function in a world you can't function in and keep up with everyone else.
I didn't ask for this and if someone had said here's a life you can live it but you'll have ADHD I'd have said no thank you I won't suffer that life.
A lifetime is a long time when you're just trying to get through it.
In fact the only thing that gets me through is knowing I won't be here forever and each day I get through is another less.

YANBU. Totally agree Op.

I don't think you are judgemental. If people funded their own family lives we wouldn't pose these questions. Government (in other words, we taxpayers) assistance should be for emergencies, as a safely net, not as a lifestyle choice. I think the Government should make chasing absent fathers a priority though.

@Miyazaker

I would argue that people with poor prospects and little agency over their lives don't have the same incentive (and possibly ability) to plan their lives in the same way that those that are financially stable do.

I get that. I grew up in dire poverty myself and was orphaned young. All I had was a bag of clothes. I saw how poverty can suck the life out of people. But why oh why go on to have children when you can’t sort your own life out?

@ProfessorSillyStuff What a very touching post. Good luck to you

I’m really sorry to hear of people’s own difficult situations on here 😢 I just want to make it clear on a few things;

@mam0918 I am in no way shape or form against people with disabilities having children in general. My own disability started after my child was born, my child’s disability started from birth. I know someone who is disabled and in a wheelchair that has one child, she is making sure she will never have anymore because she knows it’s not fair to place that extra responsibility onto her family and friends who help care for her and her child - that is a really sensible way of thinking about it, and they made sure they had genetic testing done beforehand to make sure their child was not going to have the same illness. That I have nothing against, but what I cannot agree with is if you know there is a very likely chance of your child suffering the same fate as you or one of your other children, knowing how awful things might be for them - then I don’t feel that is fair. That child hasn’t asked to be born and then have to suffer through pain, watching other children being able to do things they cannot, going through endless painful procedures and operations, feeling unwell all of the time, etc.

@ReturnfromtheStars no, not overstepping at all! I’ve never actually heard of this, but for me, another reason I wouldn’t have another child is because I think it would put an unmanageable strain on myself because of my own disability and health problems, and then I wouldn’t be able to care for the child that I already have in the same way I do now. X

A less extreme example, I know someone whose first child was born and ended up developing really severe eczema and allergies, she literally only sleeps around 1-2 hours per night broken up over the whole night. This person then went onto have a baby knowing she would get even less sleep. Her second child now has similar skin and allergy problems = she gets even less sleep and constantly posts on social media how exhausted she is. I no longer have any sympathy for her and if that was me, I would have focused on my first child first and got them more settled and things under control a bit more before adding a baby into the mix and completely overwhelm myself 🤷‍♀️

@mnetting I've never seen anyone so perfectly articulate something that's been in my brain. Seriously. I'm a bit staggered by it. I'm so sorry that you have to endure that, because I do too, and it's bloody awful.

Because people are essentially stupid and selfish and put their own wants/desires above the needs of existing children.

I've personally always thought it incredibly selfish to procreate if you know you're going to pass down an illness/disability. But people still do. It's their 'right' to have a baby.

I stopped at 2. Would have loved a third but it would have totally affected the other two. I now have friends who moan that my kids do loads of sports etc and they can't fit in as many sports because they have 5 kids to ferry around and have to accommodate all 5. Well did you not bloody think about that?!

Having children isn’t always a rational planned measured decision. It takes one slip up, or one really happy easy month or two and you think oh let’s go for it and that’s that.

@NetflixMom21

I’m not saying it is anything to do with me, but it drives me nuts hearing people constantly complain that they can’t cope with their situations… when they have created the situations for themselves in these circumstances!

Totally agree with you! I don't understand it either. Know someone like this and they never are able to go on holidays, constantly struggling, live in a really bad area and cramped conditions, crazy!

You are being a bit judgemental, but that's human nature.

I sort of agree in that it does bother me when people complain they have no money and can't afford the kids they have but then actively choose to fall pregnant with another child (I'm not talking about accidental pregnancies, but actually making that decision despite not being in a financial position to do so). I just think it's extremely unfair on the existing children.

I also judge the people (and there are lots on here) who actively encourage people to go ahead with pregnancies they weren't expecting and can't afford because "it's meant to be" and "you'll find the money somehow". It's trite, irresponsible and patently not the case for many families.

I've thought about this sometimes in terms of that I've noticed that a few people I know or have heard of with at least one very disabled child have lots of kids (4-5), and often most of their kids have some SEN. I did wonder in part if it's because once you have one child who will essentially need care for life, you may not be able to work FT or at all, so you kind of throw yourself into being a parent? Unless you have a lot of family money or very wealthy partner you're probably going to be badly off and crazy busy your whole life, so might as well share it with more kids?