… to wonder why people continue having more children if they cannot cope with the ones that they already have?

[NetflixMom21]

… or am I just being extremely judgemental?

A couple of recent interactions and conversations with people that I know has got me thinking about this. In one situation; the person in question already has a couple of children plus a couple of stepchildren which they have 50% of the time, they are always complaining of having no money, they have openly said that they max out their credit cards to survive and pay their bills every month and are in a lot of debt because of it… now they have just announced that they are having another child.

In the second situation; the person in question has 5 children. The first child was born with a severe disability and they were told that it could possibly be genetic and that if they had anymore children, those children could have a disability too. The second child was also born with a disability, but not as severe as the first. The person then went onto having 3 more children, of which, another child has a similar disability to the first 2. So 3 out of 5 children are disabled. This person now admits that they are unable to cope and it massively impacts on the care that they are able to give their children.

In the third situation; someone that I know was born with cystic fibrosis (they are the first born child of the family). They nearly died as a young child and was only just about saved by a lung transplant which they were incredibly lucky to get. The parents have gone on to have more and more children, even though they know that they have the gene for cystic fibrosis and any child that they have may be born with it too and after watching how badly their first child has suffered. Well another child has been born with it, and suffers horrendously already (they are reception/year 1 age) and unless they receive a lung transplant, they might not even make it to a teenager.

My own situation; I have a progressive disability myself and also a child that has a disability. I know that I will never have anymore children (I am looking into surgical procedures to ensure this) because I know that firstly, I will not be able to cope with my own illness and that is not fair on the child especially as I know that there is a possibility of me having another child with a disability, and secondly; I do not know how much independence my child will go onto have as a teenager and adult, and if I had another child, it would impact on the level of care that I am able provide for my child and that isn’t fair on them.

AIBU to wonder why people in these situations continue having more and more children rather than focusing on the ones that they have, and then constantly complain of being unable to cope?!

[quote godmum56]@luckylavender
"None of your business. And if you're fed up of them moaning just stop listening"

As a taxpayer who funds benefits, housing, education and the NHS all of which are overstretched, I think that indirectly it iS my business.[/quote]
It is your business to vote for political parties which don't attack the poorest in society ( most on Universal Credit eg are working) whilst having millions ( Sunak) or billions, (his wife's family) of £ themselves.; charging 2,900% pa interest on loans; closing down Sure Start centres , cutting £20 a week off UC etc etc.

How do you imagine the very rich got their money - by eg having no morals and paying the people who do societies worst jobs poverty wages.

Remember some one saying ' it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven'? Was he lying or deluded or insightful of the immorality of the rich hundreds of years before Karl Marx analysed it?

All of us, the lucky ones, flourish on the backs of carers, cleaners, bus drivers, indeed all minimum wage earners, all the poorest of society who we knowingly or unknowingly exploit.

Twas ever thus, attacking the desperate poor whilst revering the immoral rich.

What an awful thread. Not all women are in a position to choose.

My brother is skint. Like literally never has a penny to his name as all his earnings go on keeping a roof over his head and food on the table for his wife and two children. I presumed once older children got to school age, SIL would get a job to help share the load and that things would start to look up financially. But no, she's had another baby. I was honestly dumbfounded when they announced the pregnancy. But is it anything to do with me? No. Did I judge them and think they were stupid? Yes. But purely due to the impact it has on the older two children, who have never seen the sea, let alone have a holiday. People make their own life choices.

@Faevern

What an awful thread. Not all women are in a position to choose.

I think the OP's point was about women choosing to have more children in unfavourable circumstances. I don't think anyone would judge women who have no choice.

So, I disagree with you.

@Faevern

What an awful thread. Not all women are in a position to choose.

And thankfully several posters have made this point very eloquently - Stating some of the reasons why women might not be able to choose.

OP, you are being judgey but I agree.

Some people have terrible things happen to them which are no fault of their own making and I can only have huge Sympathy for them. I don’t have sympathy for people who repeatedly makes the same mistake and expects others to bail them out.

@CHIRIBAYA

For some their identity could be bound up in being the caregiver, afterall, our chidren give us their unconditional love and trust and this can be addictive for someone who lacks internal love and trust of self. The one who sacrifices all, holds the family together, take on the heroic effort of managing the chaos, where the partner is the complete opposite (and the more useless they are the more powerful we feel) this is a huge boost to self-worth. Sadly, lurking underneath this selfless caretaker is a strong need for control and avoidance of ones own deeper needs.

Chiribaya - you sound like a psychologist or therapist - are you one?

I agree. It often seems to be about what the parents want rather than what is best for the children.

I have four kids. Two have a genetic condition.It's very easy to judge from the outside but I didnt find out until was 35 weeks with my fourth child. Would I have more? Maybe. But I was had genetic screening and wouldn't tell anyone. So it might look feckless but it's not. I have the cash to support too.

@Belladonna12

@Drinkingallthewine I'm not criticising people who decide that they themselves shouldn't have children for whatever reason. It's entirely up to them. I am criticising those (able bodied or disabled) who think who disabled people or people with medical conditions shouldn't have children.

I don't think that people who have disabilities or medical conditions shouldn't have children. I do think that people who are having trouble coping with the lives and children that they have got should not have more. I do think that people who have inheritable life limiting or life restricting medical conditions should understand fully what they are doing and should get genetic and condition realted counselling to fully inderstand the ramification of their choice, especially if they carry the genes without personally having the illness in any significant way.

@RampantIvy

*I think the OP's point was about women choosing to have more children in unfavourable circumstances. I don't think anyone would judge women who have no choice.

So, I disagree with you.*

And how would you know what choice or reasons they have so as to know who to judge?

Some people just picture their perfect family with the perfect number of kids and refuse to give that up for whatever reason. Probably don't believe doctors opinions either, look at how people reacted about covid. So many still think it's a hoax.

I personally wouldn't have children if I knew they were going to have a disability that would likely affect their life badly. I wouldnt choose to put a child through that, to me it's like having a kid then injecting it with a disease to harm them, it would have been my choice knowingly doing that to them. Others think the risk is worth it, that's their choice. But complaining about it afterwards does seem a bit off when they chose to take that risk. I will take a risk on my own life, that's my life. I won't knowingly damage someone else's life.

I agree with another poster too that we need to congratulate women more on their other accomplishments, not just giving birth. If people in your life are not doing that, you are surrounded by the wrong people.

No-one knows @Faevern. However, there are so many posts on mumsnet from posters who are struggling with their partner, who then end their post by saying that they are TTCing. You can understand why people would question that choice.

Not every child born to women who are struggling is unplanned.

Remember some one saying ' it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven'? Was he lying or deluded or insightful of the immorality of the rich hundreds of years before Karl Marx analysed it?

Jesus said it in the New Testament. Couple of thousand years ago.

@Drinkingallthewine

Remember some one saying ' it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven'? Was he lying or deluded or insightful of the immorality of the rich hundreds of years before Karl Marx analysed it?

Jesus said it in the New Testament. Couple of thousand years ago.

Quite. We think we are a Christian country. Are we deluded?

I personally wouldn't have children if I knew they were going to have a disability that would likely affect their life badly.

But genetics don't work like that!
Typically what you have is a risk: for instance two parents carry a bad gene, but also a healthy gene, and there's only a 25% chance the child inherits both and ends up disabled. Wouldn't you take the 75% chance? And with genetic screening, you could in theory choose not to carry the "unlucky" ones to term.

Or sometimes the risk is they will inherit the parents illness, but if they're lucky (like their parents were, what with being able to reach adulthood and reproduce), it may not affect them too badly. If they're unlucky... They may not reach adulthood?
Well some people may well choose to have multiple kids to increase the odds one of them makes it. That's what our ancestors did back when childhood mortality was high. Should we judge them too?

I can't understand threads on here complaining eg of not being able to afford increases in childcare when in the next post, they say they are pregnant with their second or third or fourth. If you can't afford it now and you have a child still in childcare and will be after the second one is born, how the hell will they afford to pay for two lots of childcare?

And then there are the women who have children and then get pregnant 'accidentally' and complain that their partner is a lazy, useless arsehole. Why didn't they figure that out when they had child one or two?

I couldn't have children and I'm glad. I have been disabled since my 30s, if it was heredetary I would have been devastated to pass that on to a child. Why would you inflict pain on your own child? Anyone who gets pregnant knowing they have an heredetary disease are utterly selfish as far as I'm concerned.

I agree to a certain extent OP. But I also think the biological drive to reproduce can be extremely strong in some people, to the extent that they don't always make the best long-term decisions.
And some people think a new baby can fix a hole in their life/relationship/psyche.

@RobotValkyrie

I personally wouldn't have children if I knew they were going to have a disability that would likely affect their life badly.

But genetics don't work like that!
Typically what you have is a risk: for instance two parents carry a bad gene, but also a healthy gene, and there's only a 25% chance the child inherits both and ends up disabled. Wouldn't you take the 75% chance? And with genetic screening, you could in theory choose not to carry the "unlucky" ones to term.

Or sometimes the risk is they will inherit the parents illness, but if they're lucky (like their parents were, what with being able to reach adulthood and reproduce), it may not affect them too badly. If they're unlucky... They may not reach adulthood?
Well some people may well choose to have multiple kids to increase the odds one of them makes it. That's what our ancestors did back when childhood mortality was high. Should we judge them too?

What our ancestors did (and in some cases what still happens in the rest of the world) doesn't need to happen anymore. I actually don't have any problem with genetic modification if it eliminates things like huntingdons, mnd etc. I don't like modification for eye colour etc. But something that is going to improve life for someone and let them have a chance at a long healthy life, all for that.

But yes even a 25% chance is too high for me to risk passing on something like that. Genetic mutations happen of course, but that's not knowingly passing it on. If I knew I had the huntingdons gene, even if I wasn't affected by it, I wouldn't have a child unless the genes could be modified. It's no life to pass that on to someone. Or if they only live til 12, that's a very short life for someone. There's enough times where that happens by unfortunate luck, we don't really need to be adding to that number just because we want a child. It's a lifetime (12 years) of tests, operations etc for not much in return. Would you knowingly do that to a child?

Can I just add, going from personal experience, it's actually that easy to terminate a pregnancy, (I mean logistically not emotionally), it's probably easier to let it all happen... abortion services are NOT easy to access.

@Georgeskitchen

It wasn't Mick and Mairead Philpott was it?

No, the mother did it just before she took the kids to school so no-one was hurt. She tried to blame it on the neighbours....

And what's wrong with being judgemental? If all these parents are looking after their family with their own resources so it has no impact on anyone outside the family yes each ti their own - but I bet they do not

@bluebellsandcustard

Can I just add, going from personal experience, it's actually that easy to terminate a pregnancy, (I mean logistically not emotionally), it's probably easier to let it all happen... abortion services are NOT easy to access.

I meant NOT easy to terminate...

**I agree 100% OP.

Why on earth do people have children when they know there is a strong possibility of that child having a life limiting disability? It’s absolutely cruel to that poor child (especially the ones in your third scenario). How CAN parents be so cruel as to bring probable early death and immense suffering to their children?**

^This

I agree OP. I would have loved a 3rd child, but financially it would have been really tight so we decided to stop at 2.