Unsafe to go to Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda as a queer woman?

[idiotwhoworries]

I have a new job in the third sector. Very much in the future, there are opportunities for work (not permanently, but for short term projects) in several countries in Africa.

I'm married to a woman and feel so stupid because I can't safely go and work there at all, can I? Perhaps Rwanda but not the others?

I have obviously known for a long, long time why this would be problematic in theory, but it's never been relevant personally before and only now I actually have this job and the potential opportunity on the horizon am I thinking of the reality.

If any immigration officials either looked at my phone or questioned me ("are you married?" "what is your spouse's name?") they would know quick enough I am in a same sex marriage and while I imagine they can turn a blind eye and ignore - that seems like a big gamble?

Gen Z really has f-ed up normalcy.
Im so over the " I identify as this/that"

@Marvellousmadness

Gen Z really has f-ed up normalcy. Im so over the " I identify as this/that"

If you are a heterosexual person then I don’t think you can say that. Just like a man can’t say “oh I don’t get all this me too women’s rights stuff.”

You do realise that although lgbt+ rights were ok in the 00s they are actually better now. Respect what difference this has made to someone’s life, even if it is ‘annoying’ for you to have to understand.

The reclamation of "queer" started well before Gen Z were born.

Gay family members in their 30's hate the term queer because it was used as a term of abuse for them for so long.
I think people should be sensitive to not forcing people to accept reclaimed meanings if they don't want to.

I guess in terms of the work question it partly depends how easily you can shut off that part of your life for the months you are working in the country where it would be problematic.
Some people are naturally very private so could manage this easily and others would want to share more.
Older people in the LGBT community have a lot of experience of shielding parts of their lives from enquiry. But you may not think that the work opportunity is worth having to do this.

@GregBrawlsInDogJail

The reclamation of "queer" started well before Gen Z were born.

Yes it did, especially in America; but it was extremely divisive, and disliked by many of us for exactly the same reasons we still dislike it. So what’s your point?

It’s still in use as a slur or a derogatory term among quite a few demographics. If you’re under 25 you may never have heard it used as a derogatory term or insult, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t still used as such (some older people in the U.K. still use it as a slur).

I'm mid 20s and it was used as a slur against me at school (I'm bisexual, fwiw). I don't like the word at all but it's clear what OP means here - that she is a woman in a female same sex relationship - and surely that's the relevant part here for her worries about work travel? Not why she doesn't call herself a lesbian - if I were in a same sex relationship I wouldn't call myself a lesbian because I'm not exclusively a female homosexual and I think it's important to leave that term to real lesbians.

Well, I'm exclusively a female! Not exclusively homosexual.

It’s ironic that those screaming about how they hate labels are the ones targeting OP because she’s refusing to use their preferred label. It’s not labels themselves you don’t like, just the ones you don’t personally approve of.

OP hasn’t made a post simply to share her labels and invite discussion as to terminology, she’s shared her label because it is entirely relevant to the particular issue she’s facing. Hardly a vanity exercise.

Anyway, there has been some useful information provided in amongst all the batshittery of this thread, and I do hope you’ve found it helpful OP. Best of luck to you!

@whumpthereitis

It’s ironic that those screaming about how they hate labels are the ones targeting OP because she’s refusing to use their preferred label. It’s not labels themselves you don’t like, just the ones you don’t personally approve of.

OP hasn’t made a post simply to share her labels and invite discussion as to terminology, she’s shared her label because it is entirely relevant to the particular issue she’s facing. Hardly a vanity exercise.

Anyway, there has been some useful information provided in amongst all the batshittery of this thread, and I do hope you’ve found it helpful OP. Best of luck to you!

this

If you really wanted the opportunity to travel then take it and just lie. No big deal. If your wife wants to visit, say she's a friend. Not ideal but again no big deal in the grand scheme of things as it would be short term. If that sounds like too much hassle for you and you don't really want the travel well then you have a good excuse not to go. I'm not sure any of those countries would appeal to many for more than a couple of weeks anyway - straight or gay...

I'm not sure any of those countries would appeal to many for more than a couple of weeks anyway - straight or gay...

Kenya is a beautiful country and great to visit. The wildlife is spectacular.

@whumpthereitis

It’s ironic that those screaming about how they hate labels are the ones targeting OP because she’s refusing to use their preferred label. It’s not labels themselves you don’t like, just the ones you don’t personally approve of.

OP hasn’t made a post simply to share her labels and invite discussion as to terminology, she’s shared her label because it is entirely relevant to the particular issue she’s facing. Hardly a vanity exercise.

Anyway, there has been some useful information provided in amongst all the batshittery of this thread, and I do hope you’ve found it helpful OP. Best of luck to you!

I believe it is because many of us wouldn't dream of calling someone 'queer' due to the decades of it being used as a slur.

I mean, I've seen people get beaten up for being 'queer'. I'd never use it personally.

But then again I'm aware of the history of queer theory and all its connotations and still cannot get over someone using it about themselves, but that's their decision to make.

@Ijustreallywantacat

I'm not sure any of those countries would appeal to many for more than a couple of weeks anyway - straight or gay...

Kenya is a beautiful country and great to visit. The wildlife is spectacular.

I’ve travelled to quite a few African countries in general the people are lovely, white faces are welcomed often with enthusiasm. The problems women and children have are very similar to us, in rural areas they have to grow food to live, they have no money unless they can sell some or trade it for other essentials. Basic medical care is often lacking, treatments that would cost a few pence in the UK are not available, often due to incompetence and corruption.

@idiotwhoworries

In answer to OP's question, I would not chose to work in a country that has horrible and bigoted attitudes to gay and lesbian people, regardless of being queer or not

Lovely for you to have that neat way of looking at things.

What about the children and young adults there who are suffering from very treatable diseases who can't access doctors or medicines or medical equipment and training unless people - including big old queers like me - go out and make sure they can access it?

Not to go all Liam Neeson about this but I have a very specific set of skills that are extremely useful in my field.

Sounds like 'privileged persons' saviour complex, 'liberating' and 'rescuing' people in the poorest and least developed regions of the world, especially Sub-Saharan Africa.

Those that are supposedly being 'helped' are often seen as passive recipients of rich (often white) people's benevolence and sadly denied agency. Many people think NGOs parachuting people from the developed world into these situations perpetuates the disadvantages they face and many NGOs abuse their power as we have seen with Oxfam for example. According to some NGOs, Africans often find the this saviour attitude to help them "deeply patronising and offensive".

It's a deeply problematic set up.

Sounds like 'privileged persons' saviour complex, 'liberating' and 'rescuing' people in the poorest and least developed regions of the world, especially Sub-Saharan Africa.

Those that are supposedly being 'helped' are often seen as passive recipients of rich (often white) people's benevolence and sadly denied agency. Many people think NGOs parachuting people from the developed world into these situations perpetuates the disadvantages they face and many NGOs abuse their power as we have seen with Oxfam for example. According to some NGOs, Africans often find the this saviour attitude to help them "deeply patronising and offensive".

It's a deeply problematic set up.

Nope, no white saviour complex here. Our organisation is a social enterprise model and a major part of that is partnering with local medics to equip them with very specific clinical and technical skills (some of which are very, very new technology) needed to tackle several very specific illnesses that devastate people's lives and kill them if left untreated.

If you think there is no desperate need for doctors and clinics and training etc abroad, especially in rural areas, then you are simply broadcasting your own ignorance on this matter.

Shame on you for your misguided attempt to justify why children should suffer devastating disability and lose their lives before they even have a chance to get off the starting block - all for the want of medical care we access daily here in high income countries.

However @SlothyMoth. I see you exactly for what you are, and recognise that you are belligerently committed to misunderstanding the situation I'm writing about (because you didn't like the fact that I called myself a queer woman) while at the same time labouring under the illusion that your uninformed opinion is of any value.

How utterly baffling that the OP is getting a hard time. Sorry OP, Mumsnet can be a very weird place sometimes. Good luck with your career, your work is important.

Op, you clearly are an extremely confident and fervent helper of poor people in need. I hope it all works out for you and that you will find a way to fulfil your ambitions. It seems odd that you would choose MN AIBU to air out your concerns when you seem so knowledgeable, assertive and driven but maybe you did get something out of it. It's funny how authoritarian and devout some posters on this thread sound.

@SlothyMoth do they aye? Which NGOs are these? And which Africans for that matter (it's a big place)? In the area I lived in Nigeria people would walk for days to bring their kids to the NGO clinics for vaccination or free medical treatment. When there was a special cataract clinic set up one year there were special services of thanksgiving .

@idiotwhoworries

Sounds like 'privileged persons' saviour complex, 'liberating' and 'rescuing' people in the poorest and least developed regions of the world, especially Sub-Saharan Africa.

Those that are supposedly being 'helped' are often seen as passive recipients of rich (often white) people's benevolence and sadly denied agency. Many people think NGOs parachuting people from the developed world into these situations perpetuates the disadvantages they face and many NGOs abuse their power as we have seen with Oxfam for example. According to some NGOs, Africans often find the this saviour attitude to help them "deeply patronising and offensive".

It's a deeply problematic set up.

Nope, no white saviour complex here. Our organisation is a social enterprise model and a major part of that is partnering with local medics to equip them with very specific clinical and technical skills (some of which are very, very new technology) needed to tackle several very specific illnesses that devastate people's lives and kill them if left untreated.

If you think there is no desperate need for doctors and clinics and training etc abroad, especially in rural areas, then you are simply broadcasting your own ignorance on this matter.

Shame on you for your misguided attempt to justify why children should suffer devastating disability and lose their lives before they even have a chance to get off the starting block - all for the want of medical care we access daily here in high income countries.

However @SlothyMoth. I see you exactly for what you are, and recognise that you are belligerently committed to misunderstanding the situation I'm writing about (because you didn't like the fact that I called myself a queer woman) while at the same time labouring under the illusion that your uninformed opinion is of any value.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻excellent response. Also a virtual medal 🏅 being sent for putting up with a lot of the posts on here OP.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@SlothyMoth do they aye? Which NGOs are these? And which Africans for that matter (it's a big place)? In the area I lived in Nigeria people would walk for days to bring their kids to the NGO clinics for vaccination or free medical treatment. When there was a special cataract clinic set up one year there were special services of thanksgiving .[/quote]
It's neocolonial. Richer economies facilitate economic and political interests through aid and interventions. China has been doing a powerful job of this but Americans and Europeans are still at it too.

Special services of thanksgiving
Comments like this are unprogressive and show the inherent saviour complex psychology at work.

Queer and NGO bashing aside...

In certain places I refuse to say I am divorced, I pretend I am married because as a woman it is safer to appear that you are 'owned'. Many people in varying circumstances lie for their safety, OP. It's up to you how you feel about that.

@Mahanii

Queer and NGO bashing aside...

In certain places I refuse to say I am divorced, I pretend I am married because as a woman it is safer to appear that you are 'owned'. Many people in varying circumstances lie for their safety, OP. It's up to you how you feel about that.

I would agree with that, you have to fit in with their culture, where a “married” woman has a higher status than a single woman, it’s the better option. I would caution the OP about any mention of single sex marriage in many countries, the gossip among the locals would spread like wildfire and could end up in a very difficult situation.

@SlothyMoth yeah quite a lot of religion is about being saved - either that or propriating the Gods. Christian, Muslim, traditional - all works the same. And people in absolute poverty tend to be religious because it gives them the illusion of control over their lives. And religion, by it's very nature, tends to be conservative, not progressive.

Tell me, is any of the bollocks you are spouting based on experience? Because my neighbours would have thought you a patronising arse (no offence).

[quote Porcupineintherough]@SlothyMoth yeah quite a lot of religion is about being saved - either that or propriating the Gods. Christian, Muslim, traditional - all works the same. And people in absolute poverty tend to be religious because it gives them the illusion of control over their lives. And religion, by it's very nature, tends to be conservative, not progressive.

Tell me, is any of the bollocks you are spouting based on experience? Because my neighbours would have thought you a patronising arse (no offence).[/quote]
For women in particular it is often the only social occasion that week and the joyous way that they worship is often quite uplifting.
In addition it is often the church that organizes food and medical aid so it is very beneficial to attend regularly, particularly rural areas, urban areas are much less religious, they have many more social opportunities.