Unsafe to go to Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda as a queer woman?

[idiotwhoworries]

I have a new job in the third sector. Very much in the future, there are opportunities for work (not permanently, but for short term projects) in several countries in Africa.

I'm married to a woman and feel so stupid because I can't safely go and work there at all, can I? Perhaps Rwanda but not the others?

I have obviously known for a long, long time why this would be problematic in theory, but it's never been relevant personally before and only now I actually have this job and the potential opportunity on the horizon am I thinking of the reality.

If any immigration officials either looked at my phone or questioned me ("are you married?" "what is your spouse's name?") they would know quick enough I am in a same sex marriage and while I imagine they can turn a blind eye and ignore - that seems like a big gamble?

It is true that many people may be having a much harder time than the OP. However, this does not diminish the unfairness and lack of opportunities that the OP may face because of their sexuality. We all deplore the fact that women are denied opportunities to work and live freely in many countries in the world because of their sex, and it is no less appalling that people's sexuality denies them opportunities others may have? I am sorry OP that you are having to face such a dilemma just to pursue a career you love.

Sorry about stray question mark....should read opportunities others may have.

@idiotwhoworries I’m so sorry your thread has been derailed by all the people who are so terribly confused about the terminology you used and who ‘don’t care’ about how you identify and want to make sure you are very much aware of just how little they care about it.

I hope you are able to find some useful answers among all the bunfighting and I really wish you the best of luck with your career. I’m sorry you even had to ask the question in the first place. Good luck

@FirewomanSam nitpicking nan, it's funny how intolerant some posters are yet they demand tolerance form others, now that is ironic. Maybe the term queer is very 'du jour', why do you expect everyone to jump on board of this bandwagon if it doesn't sit comfortably with their lived experiences? Live and let live.

In answer to OP's question, I would not chose to work in a country that has horrible and bigoted attitudes to gay and lesbian people, regardless of being queer or not.

Does @mumsnet not have moderators to remove the pointless content on this thread? I know we wouldn't be left with much, but we would have the experiences of people who have worked in the region...

@SlothyMoth I didn’t use the word ‘nan’ in any of my posts so I’m not sure what you’re quoting there.

In answer to OP's question, I would not chose to work in a country that has horrible and bigoted attitudes to gay and lesbian people, regardless of being queer or not

Lovely for you to have that neat way of looking at things.

What about the children and young adults there who are suffering from very treatable diseases who can't access doctors or medicines or medical equipment and training unless people - including big old queers like me - go out and make sure they can access it?

Not to go all Liam Neeson about this but I have a very specific set of skills that are extremely useful in my field.

@SlothyMoth

Oh the irony of posting this on a thread where OP’s sexual orientation has been interrogated and scrutinised by people demanding to know exactly what she means and who she is/isn’t attracted to despite that having no relevance to the question she asked.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of irony but never mind.

AIBU is not exactly known as a supportive and gentle place to ask personal questions.

Queer doesn't mean much to many people, it seems the term itself is rapidly evolving. If this sort of thing is important to you that's fine, most of us are too busy trying to work out how to pay the next energy bill never mind and don't feel the need to advertise who we hop in bed with or what clothes we wear on any given day. (Warm wooly 'nan' style clothes today if anyone is interested).

Ah yes, I forgot that queer people aren't impacted by rising energy costs. Thanks for that.

Honestly this thread just shows that it can still be tough for queer people to be understood in the UK, let alone Rwanda.

Hope it works out for you OP, sorry that you have to weigh up career progression with personal safety.

@idiotwhoworries well quite!

Maybe the term queer is very 'du jour', why do you expect everyone to jump on board of this bandwagon if it doesn't sit comfortably with their lived experiences? Live and let live.

@SlothyMoth ”Live and let live” - now I can agree with you there!

I’m not asking anyone to jump on any bandwagon. I’m asking for the OP to be allowed to refer to herself however she likes on her own thread without a pile-on. That’s what ‘live and let live’ means.

@FirewomanSam - I realise you don’t give a fuck what I think, but you can ignore me, or and try and understand, without the sarcasm of “terribly confused”.

You’re being a cow, and it’s unnecessary. You do know that the OP’s feeling of comfort isn’t related to how vitriolic you are towards those outside your circle of reference?

Thank you to those who took me at my word, and helped my education, and I’m trying really hard not to think “why the fuck did I bother” to the ones who are ageist, and accusing others of being disingenuous, or using faux naivety. I don’t think I’ve tried being disingenuous for about 25 years, and if I want to know an answer, I ask a bloody question.

OP, I can understand your consternation, only in terms of being in danger travelling as a lone woman in the past. It is awful that you have to consider it, and I’m sure you’ve had to deal with all sorts already in the UK.

It really is worth looking in more depth at the various countries your organisation helps, as they really do have very different politics and laws. You may find that there’s one where you would be able to work in relative peace, at least on a short contract. Or, at least, be aware if the writing on the wall shows that one or other country is becoming less of an issue.

@idiotwhoworries

I just googled meaning of queer and the first result was the Oxford dictionary definiiton:

My gut feeling is this is disingenuous.

You weren't "confused" by my chosen word of queer. You just don't like it, for whatever reason.

You knew exactly what I meant by my saying I am a queer woman. You felt the urge to go after the language I use, which is the language I am comfortable with.

Yes, I'm in a lesbian mariage. I am comfortable saying that. My wife is a lesbian or queer, she's comfortable with both.

However, I am queer. I'm not a lesbian.

Anyway, it really is inconsequential if you dislike me calling myself queer - but don't pretend you are "confused" by the word queer in the context I used it in. That's a little daft.

Your assumptions about me are wrong. I was genuinely confused about how you could be a woman in a lesbian marriage with a lesbian woman and not be a lesbian. I also don't understand what queer means as in real life I have only experienced it as a homophobic slur and on social media it seems to be such a broad term that I don't know what it means at all in terms of sexuality or identity. I was genuinely asking for clarification as I have a lot of experience in East Africa so thought I could be helpful but wanted to fully understand the situation before giving any advice.

However, you are making some pretty horrible and offensive assumptions about me and questioning my integrity. I'm not telling anyone how they should identify or policing language. I was trying to clarify what the situation that you were worried about was as I thought I might be able to help. I was genuinely confused and it is narrow minded and intolerant to assume that no one could be confused about the words you used when there is so much variance in what people understand queer to mean, and the fact that it is described as offensive in the dictionary.

The hostility, intolerance, casual ageism and sneering on this thread in response to a genuine question of clarification is kind of ironic in relation to the original question.

@FirewomanSam

I think if any homophobic immigration / police start questioning you, just say you are queer not a lesbian and that should totally sort it out.

@Lilifer here’s a nice example of one of those disingenuous posts I was referring to

What is disingenuous about it?

Sarcastic yes.

@SevenWaystoLeave

What do you mean? I've had some good advice. Not sure what you mean

Sorry to say OP you've awoken the mumsnet "gender criticals", they hate the word "queer" because it's inclusive of trans people. Ignore them and hopefully they'll go away and not hijack your thread.

Nothing to do with trans - how ignorant of you to say that and how offensive to others’ lived experience and preferences about how they define themselves. You should know better than to decide to call a group of people a hugely offensive slur.

Many gay and lesbian people (me included) find the term “queer” very upsetting because it’s an unpleasant slur that also implies gay people are not normal in some way (“queer” meant strange or odd). It also historically meant gay men and erased lesbian existence. I’ve walked through cities at night as a young women with gay male friends and heard people shouting “queers” at them/us. How dare you assume it’s some kind of bigotry not to like the term!

I work with some older people who still use it as a slur and have no interest in reclaiming it - sure there are some young people who like the term, but a large proportion of gay people don’t, and it’s has nothing at all to do with trans. You really should educate yourself a little more.

I was interested in the definition of 'queer' in this scenario, and not because I give a shite whether the OP defines herself as 'queer' or 'lesbian'.

Yes, self-identifying as a woman in a relationship with another woman with another woman COULD mean that the poster is bi-sexual. But it could also mean that they are a male-to-female transgendered person.

And in that scenario, the advice on whether to go to any of the countries mentioned could surely vary for lesbians vs transgender people?

Nothing to suggest that the OP IS, but I do think a precise definition of how the term 'queer' is being used, could be relevant in terms of seeking advice on the safety of travelling to such-and-such a country. If not in THIS particular case, then certainly in others.

@lborgia I’m genuinely sorry that I’ve caused you offence and in case my post wasn’t clear, it wasn’t aimed at you at all. There are people here asking genuine questions (like you) and as I said to another poster upthread, I think that’s great.

My sarcastic use of ‘terribly confused’ was aimed at the first couple of pages of this thread where there were some very disingenuous and faux-naive comments that set the tone for the whole thread and basically derailed it from the get go.

Again, I’m sorry that my post came across like it was taking a pop at those asking genuine questions and trying to understand better.

@FirewomanSam

It takes two minutes to draft a Mumsnet post and even busy and stressed people deserve a few minutes in their day to connect and chat about something on Mumsnet, sometimes it might be the only adult interaction they get in their day.

@Lilifer that wasn’t what I was saying, I was responding to the poster who keeps repeatedly stating that they don’t care, yet the fact that they’re on a thread nitpicking over the subject would suggest the opposite.

Fair enough. I agree that there are some posters who don't seem genuine in their wish to understand another perspective and that is frustrating and makes it all the more difficult for the likes of me to ask a genuine question because I'm afraid it will be seen as shit stirring. I really want to understand this tho because I don't want to offend people inadvertently 😣

Hi - I’ve actually been the manager in this position running a large healthcare project in a previous role.

The need was for short term - two weeks to six months business trips to a country that has been mentioned on this thread several times, also healthcare related ( country is notorious for its lack of human rights). It also was a project that offered opportunities to fast track promotion and was a really interesting project about improving access and quality of healthcare.

Firstly, due to the country, people were asked if they wanted to work on it so it was not compulsory. I offered informal conversations to anyone who was considering working on the project - and sexuality was raised by two people. Please note - unless someone raised it, I didn’t bring it up. I had informal and formal conversations with approximately 40-50 people over the year about working on the project. At any time, I had between 10-15 people working in country from UK, US and European offices.

In both cases, I talked through how we operated - our accommodation, how it worked, the reality of the social life, and the rules of the country - and what our company expectations were regarding the law. Everyone was expected to register with their relevant embassy. I’d also note this is a country where culturally, PDA just doesn’t happen.
We didn’t offer friends/ families visitation - the visa situation was far too costly and complex so that wasn’t a consideration.
One decided to work on the project, the other chose not to. We had no issues - and from my regular check ins with them, they were prepared and knew the expectation. In terms of letting people know, they did share with the immediate team that their partner was same sex ( they weren’t married) but not in a big announcement, more a “I’m going to stay with my partner X’s family” when asked what they were doing. For what it’s worth, if people came out and found they simply couldn’t hack it for whatever reason, they simply were moved off the project - it doesn’t suit everyone to travel for work and some people find it just doesn’t work for them.

Interestingly, I’ve worked abroad quite a bit and I think some posters on this thread underestimate the complexity of business travel and making sense of what is appropriate in places - including in so called liberal countries. There’s places that locals will know as being fine - and other areas where that isn’t the case. Also that locals may not say anything directly but find clothing/ behaviour distasteful- which may impact on the ability to do the work.

@Lilifer and makes it difficult to call out the bullshitters without inadvertently upsetting those who seek to have asked in good faith! Again, sorry @lborgia. Nuanced discussion is not easy on these boards!

Your employer wouldn't send you somewhere unsafe for queer people.

I certainly wouldn't go to any of those countries as a lone woman. I might consider it as an organised tour/holiday. But with a view to independently living and working out there? Not in a million years.

@FirewomanSam - cheers, appreciate that. Yes, boards are hard work sometimes.

By the way, if it’s helpful, happy to discuss questions that you may want to ask your company.

I’ve travelled to the countries you mentioned but lived and worked in two other neighbouring sub Saharan countries for four years in total - as a lone woman who didn’t know a single person when they landed.

[quote FirewomanSam]**@Lilifer* and makes it difficult to call out the bullshitters without inadvertently upsetting those who seek to have asked in good faith! Again, sorry @lborgia*. Nuanced discussion is not easy on these boards![/quote]
You called me out for being sarcastic to the people who are so confused about the word queer.

Well, I’m not confused about the word queer. I don’t like it - to me as a lesbian/bisexual woman it’s a nasty insult, and I don’t see why I personally should be made to accept it to describe me. Those who do want to, fine: I might find it strange to do so, but they can do what they like.

If you want to call yourself queer, do so! That’s your prerogative.

What isn’t acceptable is for ignorant people like the post by @SevenWaystoLeave (who has presumably never been called “queer” as an insult), to go about making nasty comments about “gender criticals” and throwing around accusations of transphobia, while dismissing others’ very real lived experience and what terms they choose to call themselves.

It’s always the proponents of so called “inclusive” language and gender identity who are the most vociferous in dismissing other people’s identity and lived experience, and policing what terms people may or may not use about themselves.