Unsafe to go to Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda as a queer woman?

[idiotwhoworries]

I have a new job in the third sector. Very much in the future, there are opportunities for work (not permanently, but for short term projects) in several countries in Africa.

I'm married to a woman and feel so stupid because I can't safely go and work there at all, can I? Perhaps Rwanda but not the others?

I have obviously known for a long, long time why this would be problematic in theory, but it's never been relevant personally before and only now I actually have this job and the potential opportunity on the horizon am I thinking of the reality.

If any immigration officials either looked at my phone or questioned me ("are you married?" "what is your spouse's name?") they would know quick enough I am in a same sex marriage and while I imagine they can turn a blind eye and ignore - that seems like a big gamble?

oh ffs. It's fine to take that as a rule of thumb assumption, most people do but if you find out that's not how the people involved see themselves, you need to respect that.This really is like talking to my nan.
What's up with you nan? Are you being ageist? Funny how it's ok to be ageist yet you want others to show respect you, doesn't it cut with ways? @Lilifer asked a genuine question, no need to be so rude @GregBrawlsInDogJail. Many people don't really have the interest or time reflecting deeply on other people's ID or sexual orientations, it's not what features heavily for everyone.

It really is all self absorbed, why the need to label yourself, just live and let live whether you like women or men and whether you feel male or female whatever that is anyway. Most of us just are and get on with things.

To OP's question, I think it depends if you are someone who just blends in it should surely not be a problem but on the other hand what would you want to work in a country that doesn't respect and protect people who are gay?

**Please don’t yell at me, but this seems a good moment for me to be able to ask.

If someone describes themselves as queer, is that, then, bisexual, or is it broader than that?**

I'm technically bi but these days much more likely to call myself queer, this is because I'm generally more attracted to women than men/have little interest in dating men but can't rule it out completely. I feel like using gay/lesbian wouldn't describe me accurately and could be offensive to some people who are exclusively attracted to women. But to call myself bisexual would imply to some that I'm equally attracted to/open to rrelationships with men, which I'm mostly not. It's obviously personal to everyone though. As an aside, "lesbian" has been used as a slur against me more than any other term.

Er, bit of a x-post there. I’m still fighting for women to be seen, it would seem!

Many people don't really have the interest or time reflecting deeply on other people's ID or sexual orientations, it's not what features heavily for everyone.

Oh the irony of posting this on a thread where OP’s sexual orientation has been interrogated and scrutinised by people demanding to know exactly what she means and who she is/isn’t attracted to despite that having no relevance to the question she asked.

[quote Allaboutthatvase]@SlothyMoth

It can be important though. For example people here are insisting that the OP is a lesbian, even when she said she is not.

We all identify as different things all the time

For example how annoyed do people get about not using nick names, or being called a partner when they are infact married, being called the wrong job title or being called the wrong nationality/ area eg people from Essex calling themselves londoners, people from Scotland not wanting be called English or identifying as British because it fits their political views.

It wasn't the op that made this an issue, it was the people policing what she called her self[/quote]
We all identify as different things all the time Do we? I don't, nor do most people I know, they just are and get on with things

Anyone who gets overly annoyed about "using nick names, or being called a partner when they are infact married, being called the wrong job title or being called the wrong nationality/ area eg people from Essex calling themselves londoners" is rather a bit precious too. It sounds like the professionally offended. Hard work! I couldn't be bothered with it.

@JudyJ

**Please don’t yell at me, but this seems a good moment for me to be able to ask.

If someone describes themselves as queer, is that, then, bisexual, or is it broader than that?**

I'm technically bi but these days much more likely to call myself queer, this is because I'm generally more attracted to women than men/have little interest in dating men but can't rule it out completely. I feel like using gay/lesbian wouldn't describe me accurately and could be offensive to some people who are exclusively attracted to women. But to call myself bisexual would imply to some that I'm equally attracted to/open to rrelationships with men, which I'm mostly not. It's obviously personal to everyone though. As an aside, "lesbian" has been used as a slur against me more than any other term.

Same, in high school I wasn't bullied with the word queer, it was lezza or dyke.

@JudyJ - thanks, it is really decent of you to explain your own pov. Each of these posts explains why the need for something that is so generalised.

No person is exactly like another, so “humans” is supposed to cover it (although some more human than others maybe?!).

Same here, that you have room to work out what you feel/think, and not be pinned down to a particular set of criteria.

If you are discrete and do not display affection in public there will be no problem, if you are an activist and make a show of being gay there is a good chance you will be harassed.

In all countries there are single women that travel with friends, share rooms with them and don’t socialize with men, it’s wise to stick to the dress codes of that particular country too

@SlothyMoth
It was other people telling the op that she had her sexuality wrong and that decided rather than answering the question to focus on the labels

Just like you did. Your first response wasn't about the question at all it was to tell her you feel labels are self indulgent and your now asking why people can't just "get on with it"

Op has posted a very real specific question about specific travel.

People then started discussing her sexuality, telling her that term was wrong and trying to relabel her relationship.

Some people then popped up to tell her why was she making a big deal of it.

All this vastly overshadows the input of people that actually have experience of travel in that region.

It's what happens frequently on these threads. I've had it on previous threads under a different name, where any useful response gets drowned out under people telling me how exhausting it is, or why my question isn't a question despite no actual experience of it themselves.

Oh the irony of posting this on a thread where OP’s sexual orientation has been interrogated and scrutinised by people demanding to know exactly what she means and who she is/isn’t attracted to despite that having no relevance to the question she asked.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of irony but never mind.

AIBU is not exactly known as a supportive and gentle place to ask personal questions.

Queer doesn't mean much to many people, it seems the term itself is rapidly evolving. If this sort of thing is important to you that's fine, most of us are too busy trying to work out how to pay the next energy bill never mind and don't feel the need to advertise who we hop in bed with or what clothes we wear on any given day. (Warm wooly 'nan' style clothes today if anyone is interested).

@SlothyMoth “We all identify as different things all the time Do we? I don't, nor do most people I know, they just are and get on with things”

Of course we do! If someone asks you where you’re from, do you say ‘oh I don’t know, I just am and just get on with things’? Or do you tell them where you grew up?

If someone asks if you’re married do you say ‘what a nonsense question, I just am’? Or do you tell them you’re married/single/widowed/divorced/cohabiting?

If someone asks what you do for a living do you say ‘I don’t need to label myself, I’m just here getting on with things?’ Or do you tell them your job title, your profession?

Those are all ways of identifying yourself just the same as calling yourself a man/woman/non-binary or straight/gay/queer/bisexual. Do you object to people ‘identifying’ in all of those scenarios? Or do you only object when the ‘identity’ is something a bit different to your ‘normal’?

@FirewomanSam thanks for your reply. Honestly I am not being disingenuous or trying to offend anyone here.

I absolutely accept and respect how anyone chooses to identify and if my assumptions are wrong and they correct me I'm cool with that.

I am a 52 year old woman, I have some seriously heavy shit going down in my life this last few years and I am not at all up to speed in this area because it's not something that I come across in my daily life. For eg the word queer was a slur when I was a teenager so I was unaware that this word was ok now, call that ignorance or being out of touch but I genuinely did not know that.

What I am struggling to understand on this thread is where people (I don't mean you because you replied in good faith and civilly) but the level of anger directed at people like me who are asking genuine questions and are being shot down as offensive or likened to "talking to my Nan" etc

Anyway thanks for your explanation and yes I agree that there's no need for me to have that knowledge of someone's sexual orientation and it makes no difference to my day but it's just something that I assume without giving it much thought, it's not even a conscious thought process just an underlying assumption. I don't honestly care what anyones preferences are that's not my business and I've far more important things to occupy my mind sadly 🙁

If this sort of thing is important to you that's fine, most of us are too busy trying to work out how to pay the next energy bill never mind and don't feel the need to advertise who we hop in bed with or what clothes we wear on any given day.

You all sure seem to have plenty of time to pop on Mumsnet and nitpick about the OP’s identity and sexuality though, for people who claim loudly not to care and to be far too busy with more important things.

@SlothyMoth

oh ffs. It's fine to take that as a rule of thumb assumption, most people do but if you find out that's not how the people involved see themselves, you need to respect that.This really is like talking to my nan. What's up with you nan? Are you being ageist? Funny how it's ok to be ageist yet you want others to show respect you, doesn't it cut with ways? *@Lilifer asked a genuine question, no need to be so rude @GregBrawlsInDogJail*. Many people don't really have the interest or time reflecting deeply on other people's ID or sexual orientations, it's not what features heavily for everyone.

It really is all self absorbed, why the need to label yourself, just live and let live whether you like women or men and whether you feel male or female whatever that is anyway. Most of us just are and get on with things.

To OP's question, I think it depends if you are someone who just blends in it should surely not be a problem but on the other hand what would you want to work in a country that doesn't respect and protect people who are gay?

@SlothyMoth yes thanks, I agree, and that poster was rude which is why I didn't bother addressing their post 🙁

[quote SlothyMoth]@FirewomanSam
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4518873-life-is-pretty-shit-for-a-lot-of-people
Read this thread, then you'll understand that many, many people haven't got the luxury to reflect extensively on "what does it mean to be meeeeeee today?"[/quote]
What nonsense. I was homeless at 16 with no family support and no money to my name. That was the point where I questioned and reflected on my identity the most, more than any other time.

Actually, I am more settled and stable now than I have ever been, and I now just don't have the time/don't care to reflect on it.

@FirewomanSam

If this sort of thing is important to you that's fine, most of us are too busy trying to work out how to pay the next energy bill never mind and don't feel the need to advertise who we hop in bed with or what clothes we wear on any given day.

You all sure seem to have plenty of time to pop on Mumsnet and nitpick about the OP’s identity and sexuality though, for people who claim loudly not to care and to be far too busy with more important things.

It takes two minutes to draft a Mumsnet post and even busy and stressed people deserve a few minutes in their day to connect and chat about something on Mumsnet, sometimes it might be the only adult interaction they get in their day.

What I am struggling to understand on this thread is where people (I don't mean you because you replied in good faith and civilly) but the level of anger directed at people like me who are asking genuine questions and are being shot down as offensive or likened to "talking to my Nan" etc

I think that’s partly just the nature of AIBU, and partly because for every genuinely curious question (like yours) there are many more posters on this thread who are very obviously being disingenuous and using faux-naivety to belittle the OP and derail the thread. So people are getting a bit defensive. Don’t take it personally and I think it’s great that you’re asking questions and trying to understand how to navigate an unfamiliar concept in a sensitive way.

I don't think anyone is reflecting extensively on it, except as a result of all the questioning going on in this thread. I used to call myself bi, then as I became less attracted to men/more attracted to women I decided to change how I refer to myself. Since then I've not thought about it that much, unless I have to justify myself to people demanding an explanation.

Just to add not referring to genuine questions/interest there! I guess I meant I don't don't about it that much unless people ask me.

It takes two minutes to draft a Mumsnet post and even busy and stressed people deserve a few minutes in their day to connect and chat about something on Mumsnet, sometimes it might be the only adult interaction they get in their day.

@Lilifer that wasn’t what I was saying, I was responding to the poster who keeps repeatedly stating that they don’t care, yet the fact that they’re on a thread nitpicking over the subject would suggest the opposite.

I think if any homophobic immigration / police start questioning you, just say you are queer not a lesbian and that should totally sort it out.

I don't think anyone is reflecting extensively on it, except as a result of all the questioning going on in this thread.

@JudyJ Exactly! People ask people to explain themselves and exactly what they mean by certain terms, and then when they do so the respondents get told that they’re too self-absorbed and that nobody has time for all that self-reflection. You can’t win!

I think if any homophobic immigration / police start questioning you, just say you are queer not a lesbian and that should totally sort it out.

@Lilifer here’s a nice example of one of those disingenuous posts I was referring to

Queer doesn't mean much to many people, it seems the term itself is rapidly evolving. If this sort of thing is important to you that's fine, most of us are too busy trying to work out how to pay the next energy bill never mind and don't feel the need to advertise who we hop in bed with or what clothes we wear on any given day.

What?

Are you likening my thread, asking for advice on exploring a work opportunity in countries abroad (where I could make a solid difference to the lives of very ill children, thanks to my expertise - that's why I'm driven to want to go, it sure ain't about the money) where I could be in legal trouble for being in a same sex marriage - to feeling the need to advertise who I hop into bed with?