Unsafe to go to Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda as a queer woman?

[idiotwhoworries]

I have a new job in the third sector. Very much in the future, there are opportunities for work (not permanently, but for short term projects) in several countries in Africa.

I'm married to a woman and feel so stupid because I can't safely go and work there at all, can I? Perhaps Rwanda but not the others?

I have obviously known for a long, long time why this would be problematic in theory, but it's never been relevant personally before and only now I actually have this job and the potential opportunity on the horizon am I thinking of the reality.

If any immigration officials either looked at my phone or questioned me ("are you married?" "what is your spouse's name?") they would know quick enough I am in a same sex marriage and while I imagine they can turn a blind eye and ignore - that seems like a big gamble?

@joystir59

No she's not. Cut it out.

@BiscuitLover3678

I know plenty of lesbians. I really, really don’t think you should policing somebody on their identity

Yes, I know, and that’s why I said-

And no, I know I don’t have the right to dictate what other people call themselves, but I do think that some people find it jarring to hear the word and might want some clarification. And yes, it’s up to you if you want to give them that clarification.

:28XmasElf10

I grew up in the times of “queer bashing” and I am definitely not normally woke but I completely understood the OP referring to herself as queer. She is fully entitled to use any descriptor about herself that she wants. I wouldn’t call a homosexual queer unless that was the descriptor they had claimed as I would not want to offend but in this case the OP has chosen queer so it would be rude not to use her chosen term.

OP I’d consider this a little like working in strict Arab countries with dubious womens rights. I think personally that I would find it very stressful to work in a place where I worried about getting into trouble just from being myself. I think it’s easy to say “it’ll be fine, particularly as you are a woman and not a gay man” but you only need to find a pocket of homophobia (and this thread shows how easy that is) and you could end up in a lot of trouble…. Particularly when the homophobia is backed by the law. I think I would not take the risk but I am a pretty risk averse person generally.

This!👆

Do you not know what a bisexual is?

I'm one of those who was surprised by a woman married to a woman who rejected lesbian as a label. The first explanation google gave me (for preferring queer) had nothing to do with being bisexual. The multiple sarcastic posters who've offered bisexual as an explanation don't sound as clever to me as I imagine they do to themselves.

(My curiosity being satisfied by the link I found, I no longer care which of multiple possible explanations apply to OP.)

Your employer shouldn’t send you anywhere that you’re at risk. They have a duty of care to you.

And your career shouldn’t be damaged by this - if you can’t work on particular projects etc - your employer should discuss this with you and offer alternatives, otherwise you are being discriminated against because of your sexuality.

I’m so sorry you’re facing this.

Have you spoken to your employer, might be worth a conversation now, rather than when work abroad becomes more of a reality?

If you work in this field, surely you are familiar with your employer carrying out risk assessments for international travel?

Can't decide if this thread is full of ridiculous fake innocence or plain biphobic ignorance. Being married to a woman doesn't make you a lesbian, any more than not being married doesn't make you asexual. Your sexuality isn't defined by the person you're currently in a relationship with.

And sometimes slurs are reclaimed, that's not a new or shocking concept. Lesbians have been referring to themselves as dykes since the shock horror 80s at least. Homosexual and gay were both originally offensive terms. Queer is a valid description of one's own sexuality.

OP, you've had some great advice on here, and I hope you don't let the rest of the comments get you down.

I'd be conscious that embassy's will rarely support you if you are found to be breaking local laws (even if they are ones we disagree with)

In any thread about work place homophobia there's always some faux "how would people know if you don't rub it in their faces"

The answer is exactly the same as how I know Linda I sit next to at work is married to Bob with three kids

My experience in uganda was that the people that lived there were like people in any country, chatty, sociable, interested in my life and that wanted to do common things like add me on Facebook and Instagram

For people not to know (which I would recommend is important in uganda from my experience):

Op firstly can't talk about her wife at all, that means no sharing stories about home life, or stories where partner is overly present. When people are sharing stories about their lives I had to just nodd and pretend I'd not had similar experiences.

Op can't have photos, not only in her place of residence (as is likely to be visited by seen by friends socially) but also generally available online. People can and will search you on Facebook even though where I lived there wasn't electricity in 90% of the buildings, people still had phones and Facebook

Op would have to be careful about things like facetiming her partner, if she's in places where other people might over hear and be aware of her facetiming one woman excessively.

That's fairly tolerable short term, but longer term it becomes an issue if you just want to say I love you or ask questions that reveal your relationship eg about the kids or talk about getting the boiler replaced as but can be overheard if the accomodation is dorm like for example or shared

Ultimately the person that nearly outed me was a colleague who I worked with for a long time thus naturally was aware. He was telling a story that happened to involve a partner of mine, and in the course of telling the story gave away some obvious details. Two people present clearly clocked it, but luckily we were leaving fairly shortly afterwards.

‘ Would your work even let you go? I know some companies will not deploy LGBT staff to places where they could be in danger.’

This is so where I work.

Please don’t yell at me, but this seems a good moment for me to be able to ask.

If someone describes themselves as queer, is that, then, bisexual, or is it broader than that?

I have no frame of reference, and hate feeling like the out-of-touch - I know that I am now seen as a white cis-gendered privileged person, which I hate because in my head I’m still a closest anarchist. Clearly not.

I’m really bothered by the idea that I would go a fair way NOT to call someone queer (as per other pps who have equal memories of earlier decades), but now people identify as that, and I cannot seem to find a proper definition (the one googled above just says homosexual, right, which isn’t correct either?!). In my head it’s the same as some POC saying the “n” word. If they wish to say it to each other, that’s up to them, but no way would I (or should I) use it. I feel the same about queer at the moment.

If anyone feels like helping with this, I would be grateful. I’m not a troll, I’m not antagonising, I’m just wanting to know.

Not saying whether you should go or not, but we had a large work trip to Uganda, including a number of gay couples (it was colleagues plus partners). They were certainly careful about public displays of affection, but there was no concern about there being any kind of investigation, etc.

@lborgia

Please don’t yell at me, but this seems a good moment for me to be able to ask.

If someone describes themselves as queer, is that, then, bisexual, or is it broader than that?

I have no frame of reference, and hate feeling like the out-of-touch - I know that I am now seen as a white cis-gendered privileged person, which I hate because in my head I’m still a closest anarchist. Clearly not.

I’m really bothered by the idea that I would go a fair way NOT to call someone queer (as per other pps who have equal memories of earlier decades), but now people identify as that, and I cannot seem to find a proper definition (the one googled above just says homosexual, right, which isn’t correct either?!). In my head it’s the same as some POC saying the “n” word. If they wish to say it to each other, that’s up to them, but no way would I (or should I) use it. I feel the same about queer at the moment.

If anyone feels like helping with this, I would be grateful. I’m not a troll, I’m not antagonising, I’m just wanting to know.

It really depends on the person. Some people would be seen as a lesbian but feel that queer fits better. Some people have a very fluid sexuality. Some people use queer because they feel bisexual doesn't work for them - maybe they're more attracted to one gender than the other and they feel bisexual gives too much weight to both.

And shock horror, and the main reason why so many people have been so ridiculous on this thread: trans people often use the word to describe both their gender and sexuality in one.

I used to use queer as a describer when I was identifying more as non binary and I wasn't 100% on what my sexuality was - it was very fluid at the time. I'm now a very proud lesbian (still non binary but don't really care very much), and don't identify with the word queer anymore. However, it served it's purpose when I wanted to show that I was absolutely NOT straight, but didn't know exactly what or who I was yet.

@alexdgr8

i don't understand. you are a woman married to a woman. yet you say you are not a lesbian ? how come ?

I'm a woman married to a man but I'm not straight. Fuck me maybe non-straight people get married to the person they love but it doesn't define their sexuality. This is like having a conversation with my Nan.

This is like having a conversation with my Nan

@FairyLightPups - thank you! That really did help.

@lborgia

Please don’t yell at me, but this seems a good moment for me to be able to ask.

If someone describes themselves as queer, is that, then, bisexual, or is it broader than that?

I have no frame of reference, and hate feeling like the out-of-touch - I know that I am now seen as a white cis-gendered privileged person, which I hate because in my head I’m still a closest anarchist. Clearly not.

I’m really bothered by the idea that I would go a fair way NOT to call someone queer (as per other pps who have equal memories of earlier decades), but now people identify as that, and I cannot seem to find a proper definition (the one googled above just says homosexual, right, which isn’t correct either?!). In my head it’s the same as some POC saying the “n” word. If they wish to say it to each other, that’s up to them, but no way would I (or should I) use it. I feel the same about queer at the moment.

If anyone feels like helping with this, I would be grateful. I’m not a troll, I’m not antagonising, I’m just wanting to know.

I think that I would wait to see how a person describes themselves first

It's fairly common now for younger lesbians to describe themselves as gay. I do, but some of the older generation of lesbians I've met are horrified by that.

I use queer as a bit of a catch all term. I'd describe my friendship group as a queer group as it has a range of sexualities other than straight.

People tend to be much more fluid in describing sexuality and queer tends to be used to cover everything that's not hetro, and can be used as a vague term when people don't feel one label fits well eg don't feel bisexual or lesbian fits.

All this ;I identify as this and that', I find it very self absorbed. I wonder what, once all this identity stuff is out of fashion, as it eventually will, is going to be the next BIG THING.

I feel out of the loop here. 🤔

Is it now wrong to assume for the most part that someone in a same sex marriage is gay and someone married to someone of opposite sex is straight (by and large, and accepting there are exceptions to this)?

My son is gay and has worked recently on projects in Rwanda and Tanzania. These were perhaps for a period of 3-4 weeks and he experienced no difficulty at all. However, there would clearly be a big difference between 2-3 weeks as a foreign health worker and permanent residence. In some African countries there is a move to more stringent anti-gay measures including discussion of a death penalty.

@Allaboutthatvase - I absolutely agree with you in permanent job positions. In short term contracts/projects, it's very easy. I just don't ever talk about it.

Ironically, the only person who's asked me in 10 years of contracting is a woman I don't know very well who's married to another woman.

@Lilifer

I feel out of the loop here. 🤔

Is it now wrong to assume for the most part that someone in a same sex marriage is gay and someone married to someone of opposite sex is straight (by and large, and accepting there are exceptions to this)?

oh ffs.

It's fine to take that as a rule of thumb assumption, most people do but if you find out that's not how the people involved see themselves, you need to respect that.

This really is like talking to my nan.

@SlothyMoth

It can be important though. For example people here are insisting that the OP is a lesbian, even when she said she is not.

We all identify as different things all the time

For example how annoyed do people get about not using nick names, or being called a partner when they are infact married, being called the wrong job title or being called the wrong nationality/ area eg people from Essex calling themselves londoners, people from Scotland not wanting be called English or identifying as British because it fits their political views.

It wasn't the op that made this an issue, it was the people policing what she called her self

@Lilifer

I feel out of the loop here. 🤔

Is it now wrong to assume for the most part that someone in a same sex marriage is gay and someone married to someone of opposite sex is straight (by and large, and accepting there are exceptions to this)?

I guess the question is why do you need to assume anything? How often does a need for that knowledge actually present itself?

If someone is talking about their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend then that usually tells you whether they’re in a same-sex or opposite-sex relationship, but why do you need to know what their preferences are beyond that? What difference does having or not having that information make to your day?

For the purposes of this thread, OP said she is a woman married to another woman and that she is happy for her relationship to be called a ‘lesbian relationship’ but that she herself does not identity as ‘a lesbian’ and prefers to refer to herself as queer. I can’t believe the number of people who are apparently losing their minds over that very simple statement.

OP has given us all the information we need to be able to advise on her question, which was about how she would get on in those counties as a woman married to another woman. Thankfully some people have given great sensible and practical advice, but my goodness some of the disingenuous ‘confused’ responses wanting to pull apart OP’s identity (for reasons that make no difference to her actual question) are disgusting.

@SlothyMoth

All this ;I identify as this and that', I find it very self absorbed. I wonder what, once all this identity stuff is out of fashion, as it eventually will, is going to be the next BIG THING.

Ah yes what a fun time it will be when all the silly gay people stop being gay and everyone goes back to being straight.

Get a grip!

@GregBrawlsInDogJail - don’t be so fucking rude!

“Talking to my nan” sounds like a cliche to barrel up all old women who haven’t understood the current language into one amorphous mass to be dismissed as irritating. Amazingly patronising for one so enlightened. How ironic.

All I did was ask for some guidance / advice. Not everyone lives in the middle of a diverse community. Even reading vaguely sensible news, these things are assumed, and at some point, some of us are going to ask questions!

I saw my opportunity and fortunately @FairyLightPups was gracious enough to explain.