Unsafe to go to Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda as a queer woman?

[idiotwhoworries]

I have a new job in the third sector. Very much in the future, there are opportunities for work (not permanently, but for short term projects) in several countries in Africa.

I'm married to a woman and feel so stupid because I can't safely go and work there at all, can I? Perhaps Rwanda but not the others?

I have obviously known for a long, long time why this would be problematic in theory, but it's never been relevant personally before and only now I actually have this job and the potential opportunity on the horizon am I thinking of the reality.

If any immigration officials either looked at my phone or questioned me ("are you married?" "what is your spouse's name?") they would know quick enough I am in a same sex marriage and while I imagine they can turn a blind eye and ignore - that seems like a big gamble?

I have some experience of this nature in Uganda. An openly gay (M) charity I know of was there and,whilst he was not a direct target, his local contact (known personally by me) was forced to leave the country under exile and now lives in the west as he will be imprisoned directly as a result of his involvement should he return.
It’s a horrific state of affairs. I love Uganda but not it’s politics

I can’t believe the amount of faux-naivety on this thread! And people trying to have you describe yourself as a lesbian!

As a fellow queer woman who travel a lot, and have traveled to quite a bit of homophobic countries I would say that over all the risk is low. Usually as long as you avoid PDA, and respect the culture, you will find that most people don’t care, especially when it comes to relationships involving women. There are even queer communities in all of those countries, so I wouldn’t worry about it too much (you might want to get in touch with local queer people before you get there to get the best tips and tricks).

I came out to people (including men) in countries like Egypt etc… and it’s been fine, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend doing that but the population isn’t necessarily represented by its laws.

It’s more about how you would feel living in a spot where you can’t be yourself? I lived in an homophobic (and frankly sexist) country for a few months and it was extremely taxing on my psyche. I did find a lesbian community there and still didn’t let things get me down but it made me value living in places where I can be myself so now I refuse placements in places like “Saudi
Arabia” “Qatar”’and even Dubai. I have had offers for Kenya but again, whilst visiting is great I just don’t want to live day in day out in an environment where I can’t be myself anymore so have been refusing to work there (I will say though that I wasn’t worried about feeling safe as a queer woman but more so not wanting to have to lie about who I am and have to entertain the endless “so do you have a boyfriend?” Questions you get when people try to get to know you.

I didn't mean to be hostile and I'm bisexual so I'm very much not homophobic! I don't know if it would put you in danger in those countries because I don't know enough about them. What I meant was identifying what is more important to you - being out at all times or accepting that going back in the closet is a short term sacrifice to have the experience of working in those places. Only you can make that call.

One of my lesbian friends is in a LTR with a Muslim woman who doesn't feel able to be out to her family. In London. And my BIL has never married his partner because his partner's parents can't accept he's gay. He's American.

While lesbians and gays might be at physical risk in some countries, let's not pretend it's all rainbows here either.

To many of us queer was used as an insult though.

@SarahAndQuack
What twaddle! I’m not being judgemental at all. I was asking a question. I cannot grasp why anyone would choose to live somewhere where they may not be accepted - unless they absolutely had to. Fortunately, the OP DOES have the luxury of choosing to live in such a place.
Would YOU choose to live somewhere knowing that your life may well be severely restricted? I wouldn’t choose to live in Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, or any other country where women are second class citizens. That’s not a luxury. It’s common sense as I wouldn’t want to get arrested if I broke their strict laws against women.

@ntsure

Actually cannot believe how vile some posters on this forum are when it comes to LGBTQ issues (let’s be honest, any issue ther might possibly include a trans woman because this place is becoming a cesspit of transphobia) Queer is a valid word, bore off.

To many of us, ‘queer bashing’ in the 80s and 90s is still very real.

@Soontobe60

I wouldn’t want to live in any country that wouldn’t accept me as I am - so I can’t really understand why a gay woman would choose to do so. Would you not feel wrong having to pretend about your sexuality?

If you think lesbians don’t have to hide about being gay in even places such as the UK then you must have missed the fact that gay marriage wasn’t even possible a decade ago and that plenty of lesbians and gay men actually get beaten up still, it was just in 2019 that you had that massive news story about the lesbian couple being beaten up in that London bus!

I can’t tell you the amount of time I have had people make inappropriate comment, imply I am sick or that I should be raped when coming out in “perfectly civilized” countries like the UK.

Any lesbian who is currently alive on this planet probably live in a country where it’s not 100% safe to be themselves at all time and where they have to actually decide when coming out is safe or not on a person to person basis. There is no country where it’s a non-issue at all time and where coming out 100% involves no risks.

It’s wrong that we have to sometimes pretend we are straight. But that’s something I have to do EVERYWHERE unfortunately, depending on the situation.

To many of us, ‘queer bashing’ in the 80s and 90s is still very real.

It's thirty years since 1990. LGBT people reclaiming "queer" is very, very old news, and I really don't think you get to tell people they're describing themselves wrong.

@GregBrawlsInDogJail

To many of us, ‘queer bashing’ in the 80s and 90s is still very real.

It's thirty years since 1990. LGBT people reclaiming "queer" is very, very old news, and I really don't think you get to tell people they're describing themselves wrong.

I was alive in the 80s and 90s and am happy to describe myself as queer as are all my queer friends of the same age. I was queer then and I'm queer now. The only people I've ever heard object to "queer" are those who object to umbrella terms which encompass trans people along with the LGBT (often with a healthy streak of biphobia too). I've also read enough rants about the word "queer" over on the sex and gender board to know this is a particular problem on Mumsnet. We're not stupid, we know why certain words get certain people crawling out of the woodwork.

@GregBrawlsInDogJail

To many of us, ‘queer bashing’ in the 80s and 90s is still very real.

It's thirty years since 1990. LGBT people reclaiming "queer" is very, very old news, and I really don't think you get to tell people they're describing themselves wrong.

And you don't get to tell us what words we find offensive.

[quote Soontobe60]@SarahAndQuack
What twaddle! I’m not being judgemental at all. I was asking a question. I cannot grasp why anyone would choose to live somewhere where they may not be accepted - unless they absolutely had to. Fortunately, the OP DOES have the luxury of choosing to live in such a place.
Would YOU choose to live somewhere knowing that your life may well be severely restricted? I wouldn’t choose to live in Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, or any other country where women are second class citizens. That’s not a luxury. It’s common sense as I wouldn’t want to get arrested if I broke their strict laws against women.[/quote]
Your imagination must be very limited if you really can't grasp it.

I personally wouldn't live in any of the countries mentioned, or various others including the US, because I would be frightened about homophobic violence. But, as a PP says, it's daft to pretend the UK is perfect either. The OP does not have the luxury of living somewhere she can be sure she's accepted. She's making compromises that are probably familiar to her, in trying to figure out what level of discomfort/fear/danger she can put up with.

@Rainbowshit, FWIW, I find queer personally upsetting too; it reminds me horribly of my dad who'd use it as a slur (probably still does). But that is totally separate from the OP asking a perfectly sensible question, and getting jumped on by posters having a go at her for using the term.

You and I may not want to use it but she evidently feels comfortable with it and quite obviously it's not the important bit of her post - she's been clear she's a woman married to a woman so is concerned about how same-sex relationships will be viewed.

Being alive in the 80s isn't the same as actually having been there. I was marching with the miners. My life In the 90s was like the storyline of It's A Sin.

We shouted 'We're Here! And we're queer!' at Pride. Which felt really radical! Reclaiming the slur.

But now there are so many straight people now who call themselves queer that I think it's become a meaningless term. That said, people are free to use whichever descriptor they choose.

[quote SarahAndQuack]**@Rainbowshit, FWIW, I find queer personally upsetting too; it reminds me horribly of my dad who'd use it as a slur (probably still does). But that is totally separate from the OP asking a perfectly sensible question, and getting jumped on by posters having a go at her for using the term.

You and I may not want to use it but she evidently feels comfortable with it and quite obviously it's not the important bit of her post - she's been clear she's a woman married to a woman so is concerned about how same-sex relationships will be viewed.[/quote]
Well if you look at my initial post on the thread I did answer the question asked in good faith. My subsequent posts were reacting to the folks saying there's nothing wrong with the word queer. I am allowed to disagree and say I think it's offensive.

Of course you're allowed to disagree, but it seems a bit weird when it's got nothing to do with the OP's thread, and she's asking something that is fairly important - she's not just started a chatty conversation that could stand some digressions and meanderings.

But, yes, you're entitled to post whatever you like.

A lot going on in this thread but ignoring that... do you have any experience or knowledge of the area? I've worked extensively in East Africa and find this sentiment quite bizarre:

Thank you - that's encouraging. I hope your project went as well as possible

As possible? What does that mean?

That aside, I don't see any danger or problems with immigration. I travelled frequently with my gay, married colleague. He simply never mentioned it. How you feel about doing that, only you can know.

@SarahAndQuack

Of course you're allowed to disagree, but it seems a bit weird when it's got nothing to do with the OP's thread, and she's asking something that is fairly important - she's not just started a chatty conversation that could stand some digressions and meanderings.

But, yes, you're entitled to post whatever you like.

Yes I am entitled to post whatever I like. If you look down thread I answered in good faith. Using queer as a descriptor is controversial, why you expect people not to react to something that was used a slur in living memory is quite baffling tbh.

I don’t know a lot about the countries so can’t advise specifically. For me though it would be not just about practical safety but how safe would you feel? Would worry and anxiety about feeling unaccepted ruin the experience? Would you feel stressed meeting people and making friends? I think the stress of it all would ruin it for me.

Interesting that some employers won't send LGBQT staff to countries where homosexuality is illegal. I know of plenty of LGBQT lawyers that have travelled for work to countries where homosexuality is illegal. Just short business trips. This has made me wonder how wise that is.

@idiotwhoworries hey. I'm from Kenya. Born and raised and moved to the U.K. and I can honestly tell you it makes no difference. Please dont worry and go to that beautiful country. You can say you're married to a woman and nobody will care. Esp not immigration officials. I have plenty of gay/lesbian friends who are holding amazing jobs in Kenya and living their best lives.

All the best with the new job! :)

I've done work in all of those countries with NGOs. I've never been questioned about my marital status on entry. Off the top of my head the visa requirements are light for all of them and I think you just buy on entry anyway.

If you're working in a rural area a simple 'I'm married' will be fine. People are unlikely to probe further. Do you ask lots of questions about colleagues' personal lives? Especially ones you've only just met?

There's another factor. If you work for an NGO you usually have some measure of protection- the community want you there, the government want you there. The police don't tend to go around arresting expat humanitarians. Local staff experience very different pressures.

If you're going to work overseas you need to develop more of a nuanced understanding of a host culture (which will include LGBT people) and your position in it as a member of staff from overseas. Short term work is very different from living in a country long term, where you might want to consider the long term effect on your mental health.

Sounds like a hypothetical. Your work hasn't actually asked you to go to one of these countries.
It is just a possibility if I understand correctly.

Doesn't sound like there's something to worry about yet...

are you thinking of applying to a role in one of these postings? If so, does your employer have a Q discussion or networking group? Network within your company and find out the experience of others in your sector. That's what I would do.

But most of the time it's actually OK if you are not a local...