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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Carer charging me even though I didn't employ her

207 replies

NickyNora · 29/03/2022 19:42

My son is Autistic.
We use a Carer on a regular basis.
One of his friends from college had an outing recently.
The other child's parent organised the activity and the Carers.

We all use the same Carers.

The other child invited my son and 2 other boys to the outing.

I thought my son was a guest.
He needs almost no help socially now especially when he's comfortable with the environment and company.

Yesterday, I received an invoice for £160 from one of the Carers.

I checked with the parent of the child whose outing it was, that they have already paid the Carer.
The other parent didn't know I was being billed.

AIBU to say to the Carer, that I won't be paying her as I wasn't aware I was being billed?

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 02/04/2022 12:31

SchoolChoice - good post.

Sleepyblueocean · 02/04/2022 12:41

"The carer has assumed that both the friends parents and the OP would be paying."

That is the assumption the carer should never had made. Before you do any work you check with the person you expect to pay you. That goes for any job.

WisherWood · 02/04/2022 12:45

I spoke to the Carer, she seemed to presume, as my son was at the activity, that I was also paying her.

Well to start with I would point out to her that unless you explicitly ask for her care and make a booking she cannot assume you will pay her.

Effectively I'm in the situation where if I don't pay her, I will lose her as a Carer. She's worked with my son for 5 years.

Carers are incredibly difficult to recruit and keep. She knows we are near the end of our arrangement as my son will move to adult services and unlikely to get much support.

How soon is soon? I'd be inclined to get tough with her. I agree with PP that you're basically losing her either way, as she is pulling a fast one. Go back to the other parent and find out what they agreed and what they paid. Then go back to the carer and ask her her hourly rate for caring for two adolescents and her petrol costs. Take what she has already been paid off those costs and if there is a difference, pay her that. Otherwise she's chancing her arm.

And I would be very clear with her about how she is not to assume that she can bill twice in this way and assume you have booked her when you haven't. Things are difficult for everybody and she may be very stressed by this, but we all are. If she still insists on payment then frankly I'd find a way to cut her hours next month so that overall you pay her the same amount in total.

StaplesCorner · 02/04/2022 12:50

I'm none the wiser, so many people asking who booked the carer so we need the OP to come back. How did the carer know about the event, did she assume she was to go along to care for OP's son? Without us knowing who booked her, we can't possibly say what's fair and who might be at fault.

Gizacluethen · 02/04/2022 12:51

I spoke to the Carer, she seemed to presume, as my son was at the activity, that I was also paying her.

I'd feel so awkward but I'd just feign confidence and just reply "no sorry, Adam doesn't need support in that setting so we didn't feel the need to book it. We'd never expect you to care for him without checking with you first."

Agadoodoododont · 02/04/2022 12:53

So the cater has already been paid by the parent organiser?
Got paid their hourly rate for supervising 3 young people. That’s it. That’s their wage. He/ she is just trying it on. I’d contact the agency if they work for one.

Agadoodoododont · 02/04/2022 12:54

Carer, not cater!!!

Gowithme · 02/04/2022 13:15

I think you need to contact the host parents and ask them to sort it out with the carer.

SpidersAreShitheads · 02/04/2022 13:54

“ If I was usually caring for one person and then had supervision for 2 people....

It's extra work supervising the extra person, even if they don't actually need it during the time I was overseeing.

If my usual rate was 15 - I'd charge a 50 per cent uplift hourly...”

I don’t understand this at all. If you were working as a carer at a nursing home and got paid from 10-6pm, you’d get the same money whether the beds were all full or whether there were some vacancies.

It’s the same job. Some days are easier. That’s just work, surely?

When a carer comes to your home, you don’t change their fee depending on how hard the activity is. “Oh DS just wants to stay at home and do some drawing today so it will only be £50 instead of the usual £100.”

I think the same applies to this situation.

Also OP I know you feel as if you’re in a tight spot but that’s an enormous bill that wasn’t agreed with you in advance and it’s not as if she’s not already been paid. I really really wouldn’t be paying this - and I wouldn’t want her in my home anyway if she was effectively holding me to ransom. I have a disabled son and I know how hard it is to get a good carer but I wouldn’t be forced into paying that. No bloody way.

PussInBin20 · 02/04/2022 14:05

If you didn’t book her then you shouldn’t pay. The contract for her services are between her and the person who booked/arranged it.

She can’t go assuming you would pay! There should have been some form of paperwork re: this ie invoice between her and the Booker.

I think she’s pulling a fast one especially as she’s already been paid

Binglebong · 02/04/2022 14:07

One person cannot do 1:1 for for two people at the same time. By involving a second person the care for the first child is automatically no longer 1:1 and should not be charged as such.

In other words if you are charged it should not be for one to one - it should be reduced and the host parent's payment should also be reduced. At most it should be 75% each.

In reality I am firmly of the opinion that as you did not book you should not have been charged. The correct response by the carer would be to have contacted the host family immediately on finding their was another child with her charge and make arrangements with them. At no point should you have been asked for payment.

Blimecory · 02/04/2022 14:09

I don’t understand this at all. If you were working as a carer at a nursing home and got paid from 10-6pm, you’d get the same money whether the beds were all full or whether there were some vacancies.

It’s not the same as this at all. The carer is not working in a care home, where what is expected is different. The carer here is privately employed to provide individual care for one person. The carer has several clients and is paid by each of them. The more clients, the more she earns.

Original poster
NickyNora · 02/04/2022 14:53

The Carer has been paid already.
She charges different rates for different children apparently.

I have spoken to her and as my son was on the day out she presumed she was caring for him too.

Though she didn't actually have to help or support him in any way.

Sorry I don't know how to reply to people directly. I'm extremely tired as my son was up for most of last night

OP posts:
milkyaqua · 02/04/2022 14:59

Well, I don't think you should have to pay her. There was no arrangement to do so, she's just assumed a lot of things and is charging multiple people for the same job! That sucks.

Original poster
NickyNora · 02/04/2022 15:01

With hindsight, I should have checked the arrangements.

I should have realised the Carers were suoerving the event and not the child's parents.

Its the Easter holidays and unfortunately we now won't have many hours left this holiday and he's already been off school for a week hence distrurbed sleep.
School reopens 20/4.

OP posts:
WisherWood · 02/04/2022 15:11

Though she didn't actually have to help or support him in any way.

Then she can fuck off. She's taking you for a mug. If I'm doing a job for one client, I don't randomly invoice other clients for work they haven't asked me to do and that I haven't done just because I happen to encounter them whilst I'm at work. If I did that I'd have no clients at all very quickly.

TheNameOfTheRoses · 02/04/2022 15:17

I’d avoid using her again @NickyNora.

She took you for a mug knowing that finding a carer is hard so you were less likely to make a fuss.
And she was right wasnt she? She took advantage of you Wo you kicking up a fuss. Instead you are blaming yourself that you should have checked.

You REALLY at least have a chat with her to say that you will NOT pay for any caring of your ds that hasn’t been agreed before hand.

I’m sorry you cross path with someone with so little sense of ethics and fairness. Flowers

5zeds · 02/04/2022 15:17

We’re you able to tell her that you didn’t intend for her to help ds that day and that going forward she must text you to check you both are aware of the set up. I’m so sorry you’ve lost your money and have a sleepless one. It’s rubbish for you and all so awkward. Sad

Queenoftheashes · 02/04/2022 15:34

It sounds like she’s extorted money from you

Birkenshock · 02/04/2022 15:36

I guess if you thought the host parents were going to supervise, you are acknowledging that your son does need some adult supervision that day, and it's not somewhere he could get dropped off for the day if there wasn't going to be an adult there. This means he did require some supervision, even if not loads.

Like someone said above, if you were a carer for an elderly person and were taking them on a day out for shopping and tea and your next door neighbour said "oh my mum requires no care, she'll come too but I won't pay", that would be outrageous, obviously the carer should be paid for the extra person.

I don't think it should be YOU who pays, however, it should be the host parents, who didn't communicate well enough with all parties in advance. But if they won't/can't pay, or you don't want to fall out with them, I'd pay the carer and take the hit.

YanTanTetheraPetheraPimp · 02/04/2022 15:38

I have spoken to her and as my son was on the day out she presumed she was caring for him too

Though she didn't actually have to help or support him in any way

She’s definitely taking the proverbial 🤬
If she’s admitted she didn’t do anything for him then she’s definitely way out of order, cheeky cow!

Original poster
NickyNora · 02/04/2022 15:47

I'm not presuming my son needed adult supervision, the event was miles away so everyone met at the hosts house.

Ultimately it doesn't matter, if I don't pay her she will leave. We went through numerous carers before her.
So its just a lesson we'll learnt and reminded me that she's an employee and not a friend. It gets very blurred in these situations.

My son isn't 18 til next January but it is very difficult to find experienced and flexible carer's with a decent understanding of Autism. He wouldn't see the point in a new Carer and its the only respite we get.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 02/04/2022 16:05

I guess a key question, is whether he could go somewhere for the day without an adult.

If not, supervision is required. You assumed it would be the parent of the friend and clearly they wouldn’t charge you. If it was the Carer, he was under her care if there was no other adult. As someone who does this for a living, the6 do charge people. As you say, you’re not a friend.

It strikes me as odd that the host’s parents thought they could expect the hired Carer to take responsibility for a child they weren’t expecting to pay for. And if they weren’t expecting the Carer to do the caring, who exactly was to be in charge of him and there to support him if at any point he needed it? This doesn’t have to be complex care…it could be literally being an adult presence for reassurance. However, if a teen needs that reassuring adult presence and no-one is providing it for free, then the lesson supplying it can expect to be paid.

I think this can be a blurred line with young adults who have some needs, but they aren’t especially high level. It can feel like you’re paying for something you’re not getting or don’t need…..except, if they can’t manage full independence then you do have to pay if you aren’t the adult presence yourself. It’s hard.

And yes, this isn’t like working in a Care Hkme where you’re paid a day rate or hour rate regardless of the number of people there or take you do. This is someone being hired to provide personal care and you pay more for looking after more people. It’s like a childminder being paid more for having 2 children not just 1. If you take 2 siblings, you might get a discount for sending 2 but you’d pay for 2.

No-one is faultless here. The Carer should have checked, but OP recognises she should have realised Carers would be involved snd clearly the Host didn’t spell it all out clearly to the Carer or Op.

I’d say it’s very difficult to say categorically that no help or support was needed nor provided. Given he was there and part of another pair getting support (purely by the cArer’s presence, never mind anything much more active than that) I’d say he was supported.

It’s the kind of thing when you can’t go and and opt out of the qualified care that’s there. For example, you can’t go to a swimming pool and say you don’t require the lifeguarding supplied and so won’t pay for that element but still want to go. This whole trip could t have happened without the Carers….bu it did. Yes, the Op wasn’t fully aware how it was being organised and supervised. That was a problem and mostly on the hosts part.

Dragonsmother · 02/04/2022 16:06

I used to do home care and 1:1 support care.

Reading this I feel concerned about the trust issue between you and the carer.

If I was looking after a person and their friend came along (who I also done care work for) it would be my duty (under safeguarding as well) to check what care needs I would be doing for that person.

She hasn’t checked with you- you didn’t book her so the invoice is void. She is asking you to pay for a service that you never ordered. Legally there was no agreement between you both for these hours.

Spikeyball · 02/04/2022 16:25

The Carer is a CF. The OP didn't book her for those hours so she is not responsible for paying her. The carer knows that and is taking the piss. She also knows it isn't reasonable to expect double wages in this situation. I would be looking for someone else because there would be no trust there now.