Carer charging me even though I didn't employ her

[NickyNora]

My son is Autistic.
We use a Carer on a regular basis.
One of his friends from college had an outing recently.
The other child's parent organised the activity and the Carers.

We all use the same Carers.

The other child invited my son and 2 other boys to the outing.

I thought my son was a guest.
He needs almost no help socially now especially when he's comfortable with the environment and company.

Yesterday, I received an invoice for £160 from one of the Carers.

I checked with the parent of the child whose outing it was, that they have already paid the Carer.
The other parent didn't know I was being billed.

AIBU to say to the Carer, that I won't be paying her as I wasn't aware I was being billed?

So, did the host genuinely expect to send 3 teens who all receive care from these carers on other occasions, and to only pay for 2 to be looked after? Did they really think it was okay for a 3rd to tagalomg and not be charged for, even though they would be for the group and were unable to have an independent day out without adults present?

If so, that was cheeky fuckery.

And had they spelled it out to the Carer in advance - we are booking 2 of you for X and Y. Oh snd Z who you often look after will also be there, but on this occasion he is independent and just with the group. You aren’t caring for him and won’t be paid for him, even though he’s the same teen with same needs as usual and will be with you all day.

Or didnt they say…and he was just there?

It’s all down to communication.

And with caring arrangements, you do need to smooth and keep good relationships. Sometimes that involves spending a bit more cash that you’d like and being willing to pay for something where actually there’s been a miscommunication error. You learn that sometimes laying is just the best way because maintaining those relationships is really important…and especially if you can see the other side too and accept that somewhere along the line, communication hasn’t been brilliant and is what’s led to the confusion.

And you learn to pin absolutely everything down in advance first, so you do t get this kind of thing again.

I understand how awkward this is but the carer can't think she can charge double here? Did you son actually get any support from her during the activity? Maybe he got some even if not needed as she thought she was getting paid?
Could you come to some compromise with her, you would never have agreed to blow half his monthly budget on this had to thought for one second she would charge you?

@Afterallsbeensaidanddone

you are almost at the end of your agreement then surely it doesn't matter so much anyway.

No I think the carer becomes more needed as a result of moving to adults.

That may be the case, but OP is recognising that the reality is that support for her child is gong to be substantially cut when he qualifies for adult services. So if the carer is going to have to go at that point anyway, it's reasonable to query if it matters that much if she goes now? Particularly if she goes because OP doesn't want to pay for something she never asked for.

Sleepy, I agree. There can’t be a claim without a prior agreement.

But the question is, should this Carer get paid? By someone?
They did the job and cared for the son. He was someone who needs care. He has been cared for on other occasions.

Op thought the friends parent would be the adult in charge. She didn’t know about Carers being involved. That was the hosts failing. Carers were involved and they billed for the son. So no, there’s no legal entitlement to expect Op to pay the bill. But can we expect host to lay it, given she organised a contract and sent along a teen who usually receives care from these carers? And if she doesn’t think she should pay as she didn’t book it explicitly, do we think the OP has an obligation (not legal) but by dint of her on-going caring relationship with the Carer and the fact the Carer provided the hours looking after him, to refuse?

It’s not just about legals is it, but what is the right thing?

The Carer looked after 2 boys. Looking after them was different to just having 1. They were both there and ignore if OPs son all day simply wasn’t possible or viable. Therefore, does she deserve to be avoid for her time?

She too needs to learn to communicate better. But she didn’t either. Instead she did a day of work being the responsible adult for a boy who regularly is looked after by her and who she gets paid for. So having done that and found herself doing that due to poor communication all round, is some financial recompense unreasonable?

Or are we saying everyone should say to this Carer , ‘Sorry, no money for you. The Op didn’t ask you to look after him. The fact you did look after him, is fully down to you. It doesn’t matter that he was there and is a teen with additional needs that you previously have looked after and been paid for and that there was no other adult present to care for him or keep an eye on him and that if you ignored him totally, he could be at risk, but no we aren’t paying you’.

@WombatChocolate in that case, the carer should have contacted the host and ask what was going in with the third teen. She shouldn’t have agreed to look after someone else when it’s not in her contract, at the very least for insurance purposes.

Imagine something had gone wrong and the carer had stepped in in a way the OP didn’t agree with. Imagine that there is some lasting damage/physical disability afterwards. But the OP didn’t know said carer was there, she never agreed to her looking after her ds etc…. That would be a horrible situation to be in right?

So why did the carer agree to that and not contacted the host? Or the OP (seeing that she knew very well who she was).
Is there a chance she would have done that with a child she didn’t know? I very much doubt it….

So either the carer is taking a chance there or she is incompetent. I mean in hat vase, who is saying that she is looking after other teens whilst allegedly having a 1-1 with the OP’s ds for example?

This all comes down to poor communication. However, given that Carer was the adult in charge, and spent a day looking after the OPs son, should she really be denied the pay for the job she delivered?

OP and host and Carer need to learn lessons in communication from this. The Carer should not lose out financially. They did provide a service. Ideally host will pay

It's not up to OP to learn lessons in communication, @WombatChocolate. She didn't ask for care, her son didn't need care, she wasn't consulted about any of this arrangement. It's not a case of "ideally host will pay": it a payment needs to be made, only the host should pay because OP has no liability whatsoever.

Haven’t we all had to pay for things at some point, that happened and we hadn’t been quite aware we’re going to happen and be charged for?

It is bloody annoying.

It’s a legal thing but is also about doing the right thing too and not just thinking about our own strictly legal definition rights, but what’s right too.

How can it be right to have a teen who has special needs that the Carer has previously looked after and been paid to do so, to be expected to be the only adult present with him all day, looking after other teens with similar needs, and to not get paid. That’s what people are saying should happen. It’s what has happened.

No, there isn’t be legal come back on this. Yes, the Carer got paid for looking after 1 teen. But actually they were responsible for 2 all day. How could they have had that 3rd boy with them all day and it made zero impact? Why is it okay to expect they should do that for free?

There may well be scope for negotiation on price. Hopefully host will cover this as part of their ‘hosting’ the day. That’s what I’d hope if I were this parent. By more than that, as the parent of this DS, I’d be keen to know that the Carer who had care of him for the day did receive some financial recompense for the efforts she’d put in, even though I hadn’t know it would be her doing the caring in advance. I would t be worried about legal comeback if I refused as there was no agreement, but I’d have an uncomfortable conscience about it…and in this kind of thing, I think it’s best to do the right thing. This woman took the responsibility for the son for the day. He cannot be wholly responsible for himself. That needs paying for by someone.

@WombatChocolate

How can a carer switch from being adult-in-charge with OPs son on some occasions, to simply having him there as an independent adult on another, WHEN THERE IS NO OTHER ADULT TO TAKE CHARGE?

He might have managed the day fine. He might have needed minimal input. Regardless, he couldn’t have been there by himself. He needed an adult. Fine if that’s a parent or parents friend, but if it’s a Carer, you pay for that service. Someone has to be expected to pay. The Carer isn’t there to have random extra teens hanging round with them for the day who are unpaid for.

It’s like wanting to have extra kids at a party and only to pay for a certain number and expect others to get a freebie. No.

She should be discussing this with the person that hired her, not OP. You discuss your scope of service with the person you enter an agreement with, not a third party.

They did the job and cared for the son. He was someone who needs care. He has been cared for on other occasions.

Except @WombatChocolate the OP didn’t (rightly or wrongly) think he needed care.
The fact the ds has needed care IN OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES doesn’t mean he needed care in that specific situation.

It’s like saying an elderly person needed help to go and do some shopping therefore she had to need help when having friends over at her house.
As someone who needs support like this, I’d have a major issue with anyone assuming that because I can’t do xxx I therefore automatically need help with yyyy

In this situation I would offer a good will payment for the extra work ( nothing like the amount she is asking for) but tell her that she is not to work with my child again without my agreement first - which she should of obtained if she was expecting payment.

Sorry OP, how awkward! So the carer was booked by another parent to look after another chikd but assumed you also wanted care and is now billing you direct? She’s being incredibly cheeky / she could have easily checked with you first.

I understand that good carers are like gold dust. Is she a good carer? Doesn’t seem like it.

You didn’t hire her, you owe her nothing, I guess the question is whether she can bully you into paying something you don’t owe in order to keep her. What a nightmare.

I think all you can do is haggle with her.

How could they have had that 3rd boy with them all day and it made zero impact? Why is it okay to expect they should do that for free?

Wouod you say the same thing if the third teen had been NT? Would you say that it was faut for the carer to charge the parent of that 17yo?

Your argument only works of you assume that the OP is wrong and her ds needed regular support.
Did he? Or was it assumed by the carer that he did or would?

And even if you did pay her (which you shouldn't), then it shouldn't be at your normal rate because she was looking after another child too so it wasn't one on one with your son!

Did the carer know how many children were going?

At the end of the day, they've still only done one days work regardless of how many children were there!

But the question is, should this Carer get paid? By someone? They did the job and cared for the son. He was someone who needs care. He has been cared for on other occasions

He wasn't someone who needed care on this occasion. If the carer turned up and discovered someone whom she cared for in other contexts was there, and felt that she was inevitably going to end up caring for him also, she should have contacted the person she had the contract with and told him that she would need to be paid more. She could not reasonably have expected full pay from the extra person.

But can we expect host to lay it, given she organised a contract and sent along a teen who usually receives care from these carers? And if she doesn’t think she should pay as she didn’t book it explicitly, do we think the OP has an obligation (not legal) but by dint of her on-going caring relationship with the Carer and the fact the Carer provided the hours looking after him, to refuse?

Well, no, she doesn't. If the host doesn't think she should pay, it's up to the carer to sort it out with them - which is what she should have done as soon as it became apparent that the arrangement wasn't what she expected. She can't expect OP to bail her out because she didn't bother to clarify things with the host. Part of the caring relationship must involve recognition of the fact that people like OP's son receive strictly limited amounts to pay for care and therefore she can only expect to bill for what has been clearly agreed. Otherwise she is in effect saying OP or her son have to go without in other areas because she couldn't be bothered to sort out her business arrangements.

Or are we saying everyone should say to this Carer , ‘Sorry, no money for you. The Op didn’t ask you to look after him. The fact you did look after him, is fully down to you. It doesn’t matter that he was there and is a teen with additional needs that you previously have looked after and been paid for and that there was no other adult present to care for him or keep an eye on him and that if you ignored him totally, he could be at risk, but no we aren’t paying you’.

She wasn't the only adult present. It's quite telling that the other carer isn't demanding payment.

TBH it is CF expecting the carer to look after an extra . Yes the parent should have :A Asked permission
B Paid the carer without hesitation….it’s awful the carer has had to ask for money!

Of course she should be paid, but by the parents who organised the outing. If they pay her rather than you, why would that result in you losing her as a carer?

No, there isn’t be legal come back on this. Yes, the Carer got paid for looking after 1 teen. But actually they were responsible for 2 all day. How could they have had that 3rd boy with them all day and it made zero impact? Why is it okay to expect they should do that for free?

If she felt she shouldn't be expected to do that for free, she should have raised it with the person who booked her, not assumed that someone else would pay. It's pretty cheeky to expect double pay anyway.

I got as far as this comment in your posts @NickyNora and felt I had to reply to it:
I spoke to the Carer, she seemed to presume, as my son was at the activity, that I was also paying her. Effectively I'm in the situation where if I don't pay her, I will lose her as a Carer. She's worked with my son for 5 years.

Firstly, if she is going to be charging people for her time, she doesn't have the luxury of presuming anything. She should have started out by saying that "I'll be doing the caring for X today, are you ok with whatever that might cost?" (or words to that effect)
Secondly, if payment of this invoice is going to have a knock on effect to her remaining as your son's carer, why can't you come to some arrangement where the charge is spread over several weeks (say £10 or £20 per session, should have that worked off in a matter of weeks or at most a few months).
Thirdly, why didn't she as the carer make it clear from the start that she wasn't doing this out of the goodness of her heart, that there were costs associated with her being there and that you would be expected to contribute to those costs?

I'd be trying to come to some arrangement, if she threatens to leave your DS, based on your comment that good carers are difficult to find, to pay this but doing it over several weeks/months to suit you at this point.

Btw I do think she should be paid something for looking after your son, given that presumably her usual rate is for looking after one child. The organising parents didn’t go, so the carers are looking after every child there, whether they need much help or not. But it’s up to the organising parent and carer to negotiate what a reasonable fee is, it’s not reasonable for the carer to expect double pay (i.e. the same payment from organising parent and you), but you didn’t employ the carer so it’s not your problem.

I agree that the Carer should have contacted the Host or spoken to the host at drop-off.

I did say that earlier.

However, I also think it was wrong to expect to drop a 3rd boy, unpaid for. That was down to the host. I can see how annoying that would be to the Carers. He won’t have been ignored all day. To do so would be impossible and outrageous.

Charging a full rate probably is too much. It’s probably a passive aggressive protest at the Carer feeling she’s been taken advantage of in terms if unpaid care for a day. Perhaps she blames Op and thinks he knew what what was happening, when really it’s down to the Host.

In this situation, I would be offering something if after speaking g to the Host, they weren’t willing to pay or offer something. This would be due to trying to be a fair and reasonable person, not due to legal requirements. I would also be talking to Host and enquiring much more about the arrangements and probably be avoiding her in future….the lack of communication about the plan with Op and with the Carer is at the root of all this.

When human relationships and on-going human relationships that you will rely on in future are at play, often a little goodwill and flexibility is worth something, even when you feel a bit aggrieved about the costs. This rather than rigidly sticking to the letter of the law, and erring on the side of generosity and being willing to sometimes ‘suck it up’ instead of battling the corner, is just sometimes the right thing to do. In my mind, Carers have a hard job. They are poorly paid and it’s tough. People quibble all the time about exactly what they’ve delivered, cancel short notice etc etc. I’d be bearing that in mind too, in the same way I do with a cleaner. I’d give the benefit if the doubt and try to make sure they got some money - from the host hopefully, but if not, I’d be willing to lay something, even though it wasn’t an arrangement I made at all, because I’d want the Carer to get something for the effort they had put in and day they had spent with my son.

I can see lots don’t feel like that though and are much more rigidly and purely interested in the legal side. I guess I’ve known lots if Carers who are great Carers, but who I could see being caught out by this kind of thing. Their other skills and talents might not be so good and I can see how they could be essentially exploited into doing free work…and I dint like that. As a one-off I’d accept being out of pocket over this (if host wouldn’t pay) and be more careful in future. Others I can see, think Carer has zero claim to anything and if she’s done work she wasn’t explicitly contracted for…take the view it’s tough on her.

Is the other carer charging everyone twice also?

If the carer was booked and paid for Boy 1 at her full hourly rate, then how can she possibly be also available to be booked and care for Boy 2? Surely she cannot care for both at the same time.

I don't think any of us have the full information here to be able to make useful suggestions.

OP, YANBU in not having expected to pay for a carer that you didn't book when your DC was invited to an activity that he didn't need care at.

The situation has arisen where the friend's parents arranged for the carer to come, seemingly without a clear discussion over who they would be providing support for and who would pay for that support.

The carer has assumed that both the friends parents and the OP would be paying. The friends parents say they haven't discussed the OP paying the carer. I don't know whether the friends parents have paid the Carer an appropriate amount for providing care for just their DC, for both DCs or nothing at all.

If OP has already had a discussion along the lines of "No, I didn't book care, wasn't expecting to pay for care", the friend's parents have said "No, we weren't expecting you to have to pay for care either" and the Carer has said "I provided care for 2 people and the total rate for this is £x and I've only been paid half of that. Somebody needs to pay me the difference otherwise I won't be providing future care", I'd expect there to be some discussion and potentially compromise along the lines of Carer accepting a reduced rate, friends parents contributing an additional amount, OP contributing an additional amount. Assuming that all parties want to continue a Care arrangement and relationship. And have a lesson learned about setting clear expectations up front.

I wouldn't pay her. Your son was invited out as a guest by another family. I wouldnt pay and I'd be really cross shes even asked considering there was no agreement between you both