To think that Kier Starmer is spineless?

[LittleWhingingWoman]

I'm a long time Labour supporter.
Not anymore.
Kier Starmer was asked if women have penises.
He couldn't answer.

I've had enough of this gaslighting.
How can I vote for a party that is led by this man?
How, in 2022, can a candidate who hopes to be pm not be able to say what a woman is?

AIBU to think he knows FULL WELL what a woman is but is too much of a coward to say. The men threatening and bullying Rosie Duffield certainly know what a woman is.

And I know a penis when I see one.

mobile.twitter.com/keir_starmer

This is an absolute non-issue and mumsnet sadly is getting a reputation for being a haven for hysterical transphobes.

Caring about women's rights makes me a hysterical transphobe? Labour think that about me too so there is no way I'll be voting for them. Feel free to carry on insulting women who think this is a big deal. You should know that those of us who have been watching developments with increasing concern over the last few years have been called every name under the sun, we are all out of fucks to give.

I'm sure the woman who was raped in hospital and then told it couldn't have happened as there were no men on the ward doesn't feel this is a non issue.

Perhaps I'm just a very bad person because I find that abhorrent and refuse to vote for a party who would pass a law which would expose even more women to similar trauma and then fucking gaslight her after the event.

This is an absolute non-issue

So go away and stop wasting your time arguing with us about it. Go and campaign about all those other issues that aren't getting your valuable attention while you try to correct us on this one.

This is an absolute non-issue and mumsnet sadly is getting a reputation for being a haven for hysterical transphobes.

People are increasingly seeing these kind of comments for the insidious gaslighting they are.

There is nothing transphobic about being concerned about the erosion of women's rights and redefinition of the very concept of womanhood. Nothing at all.

@spacehardware

"Its like re arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic by people who don't have much else to worry about, like poverty, domestic violence, lack of schooling, childcare, wage inequality, lack of access to healthcare, housing, access to justice for sexual assault etc etc."

I've been a victim of domestic violence thanks, because of that experience I can imagine exactly how terrifying it would be to have a man in a women's shelter. These are not luxury opinions

As have i and under the Tories, there are less domestic violence shelters.... in some areas, over 50% of women seeking help are refused as there is no one to help them, they even taxed panic rooms!!!

There are huge issues facing women, yet whenever bad news is heading the Tories way, we get ... but Labour :( usually stoked by the right wing press/media.

What gender are going to be far more effected by stopping free parking for NHS workers?
No awkward questions from LBC on this to Javid or Boris?

You meant which sex is going to be more affected. And yes the difference matters.

This is an absolute non-issue to you maybe but clearly not to a large number of posters. Do their opinions not matter? Are they somehow less than you?

And as for media stoking - Keir starmer did this to himself by refusing to speak the truth. He could put this to bed very easily but he won't.

@Alexandra2001

300 babies died due to poor treatment in 2 NHS maternity units, presumably their mothers are women, their rights get trumped by a trans argument?

So we get yet another thread on what Labour say on Trans rights.

Its like re arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic by people who don't have much else to worry about, like poverty, domestic violence, lack of schooling, childcare, wage inequality, lack of access to healthcare, housing, access to justice for sexual assault etc etc.

Presumably a woman who undergoes a Metoidioplasty/Phalloplasty is a female with a penis?

Starmer is right, its a complex issue, he also stated he wants women only spaces to stay that way.

It's more like trying to organise all the lifeboats on the Titanic and ignoring the great big iceberg, it can look like ignoring the big issues unless you understand how it fits in.

Poverty - how will this be improved if no-one can say what a woman is to then understand how the pay gap, maternity leave, differences in career options can lead to poverty?

Domestic violence - if you can't say what a woman is you can't prevent the overwhelming number of domestic violence victims from the overwhelming number of abusers, they all lump in together.

Wage inequality - who gets paid less? Women? Ah but Pip Bunce is a woman, sometimes, doesn't affect Pip! If you can't define what a woman is a lot of wage inequality magically disappears.

Etc etc, the issues you listed are WHY this is such a big issue to focus on.

@LittleWhingingWoman - you are perfectly entitled to have whatever view you want of anyone.

My opinion is that he's not spineless, he's cautious, steady & measured.

You say he 'couldn't' answer the question. Of course he could but he chose not to (which he said) because it was a typically provocative question from the right wing media who are weaponising the issue. It's their new war on woke / Brexit / masks issue.

He's spineless about everything

@the80sweregreat

He was doing quite well with Nick Ferrari until that question came up : I was cringing inside hearing him trying to think what to say. It would be interesting to hear what Boris Johnson would say about it but I've never heard him being asked.

It came up in PMQs last week. It was widely reported

[quote luckylavender]@LittleWhingingWoman - you are perfectly entitled to have whatever view you want of anyone.

My opinion is that he's not spineless, he's cautious, steady & measured.

You say he 'couldn't' answer the question. Of course he could but he chose not to (which he said) because it was a typically provocative question from the right wing media who are weaponising the issue. It's their new war on woke / Brexit / masks issue. [/quote]
You don’t think the electorate deserve to know his stance on this?

Ok, I didn't realize that Boris Johnson was asked this question too.

Of course he could but he chose not to (which he said) because it was a typically provocative question from the right wing media who are weaponising the issue. It's their new war on woke / Brexit / masks issue.

Asking a politician to define what a woman is is provocative? Just stop it.
Sex is a protected characteristic in the EA, if you support passing another law which affects the EA then you need to at least be clear about how you are defining things, its only become a gotcha question because some of our politicians think it complicated. Rushi Sunak it pretending the same confusion now, he's just waved goodbye to becoming Tory party leader at any point in the future.

[quote luckylavender]@LittleWhingingWoman - you are perfectly entitled to have whatever view you want of anyone.

My opinion is that he's not spineless, he's cautious, steady & measured.

You say he 'couldn't' answer the question. Of course he could but he chose not to (which he said) because it was a typically provocative question from the right wing media who are weaponising the issue. It's their new war on woke / Brexit / masks issue. [/quote]
What is so provocative about saying that a woman is an adult human female?

It is absolutely major issue. Labour cannot win an election unless their leader can state what a woman is. Even if people aren't aware of it now, it will come back around in 2 years at election time, the press will make a big deal of it and Starmer will look like a fool. I honestly don't understand what his problem is. The militant trans activists make up a tiny, tiny percentage of the electorate whereas women are over 50%, added to the men who know the difference between a man and a woman, equals approximately 100% of those eligible to vote. It really makes no sense at all for the Labour leader to be conflicted on this issue, I don't understand it at all. Does he want to be Prime Minister or not?

"Does he want to be Prime Minister or not?"

I legit don't think he does no

"You say he 'couldn't' answer the question. Of course he could but he chose not to (which he said) because it was a typically provocative question from the right wing media who are weaponising the issue. It's their new war on woke / Brexit / masks issue."
Of course they are weaponising the issue, that's what they do. Is he going to choose to still not answer the question in 2 years time? And then lose the election and blame "the right wing press" for his defeat? The "right wing press" exists. Labour know it exists. Their electoral strategy has to take it into account, they can't just do something and then throw up their hands and scream at the sky about "the right wing press" being to blame for not winning. They should be thinking hundreds of steps ahead, and have long term strategies. At the moment they don't even seem to think two steps ahead. They just do or say something, the right wing press "weaponises" it and Labour moan about the right wing press. They aren't going to win elections like that.

You don’t think the electorate deserve to know his stance on this?

I agree. I want clear answers on this.

@LittleWhingingWoman

It's about you, if you are raped by a man, who now says he is a woman, being told that no rape happened and the NHS, The police... saying no rape happened.

No rape happened because no men were here. I'm sorry I can't assist you, our records show that no man was here in the ward last night, you must be mistaken, you are certainly wrong. That's not pain you are feeling because no rape happened. The blood is your period surely?

No rape could have happened because no men are here.

---

This is happening under a Tory government. Women are not under an illusion that if they vote Tory it won't happen. We are politically homeless UNLESS we decide we will only work cross party with people who are still adults.

This is Orwellian and completely fucking terrifying. I, for one, will not stand by and let this become the norm without a massive fight.

@spacehardware

Spoiled ballots are inspected by the acting returning officer, candidates snd their agents to confirm all agree they are in fact spoiled and can't be construed as a valid vote. If hundreds of ballot papers turned up in each count with "Labour losing women" on them, believe me it would get back to central office.

Yes, this is my experience with spoiled ballots at election counts. (We see a lot of drawings of penises.)

We've got local elections coming up on 5th May.

In my ward it's going to won or lost (again) on around 40 to 50 votes. So spoiled ballots, or a big gob like me putting it out there at hustings that Labour won't keep woman and girls safe, could make a difference.

It's a hung council as well.

It's absolutely right to stress that this Orwellian nightmare is happening under a Tory government.

Which is why I'm so desperately disappointed in and angry with Labour for being so fucking useless and venal on this massive safeguarding issue for women and children.

@Baddit

This is an absolute non-issue and mumsnet sadly is getting a reputation for being a haven for hysterical transphobes.

This is being used by the conservatives as smokescreen to mask their shameful and disastrous leadership of this country:

brexit was a sham that has flatlined our trade and diminished us on the world stage
millions of children are going hungry in this country due to cruel policies
the prime minister is a security risk who ignores MI6 advice
he also broke the law and partied while people died
double the NHS entire annual budget was chucked away on useless covid decision making

This culture war on woke is literally the only thing the conservatives have to take your attention away from their mess in every area of governance.

So you are calling me a "hysterical transphobe" for calling out the man who wants to be the UK's next leader and who cannot say what a woman is - which IS going to affect all women in law and is going to make single sex spaces - which are there for a reason - mixed spaces.

That makes you a Men's Rights Activist.

Wait... a "Testerical" Men's Rights Activist.

You would rather call women names on Mumsnet than to understand how the issues will affect women and girls.

"The "right wing press" exists. Labour know it exists. Their electoral strategy has to take it into account, they can't just do something and then throw up their hands and scream at the sky about "the right wing press" being to blame for not winning."

Absolutely 100% this. If he becomes PM Keir starmer will have a lot worse intentioned people than the 'right wing press' to deal with

He's a QC he should had SO much better on his feet than this.

Yes he is. As are the people saying this is a 'non-issue' and accusing people of being hysterical when they are actually trying to

1. Prevent women being locked up in a prison cell with a man
2. Keep biological males out of women's sports
3. Reverse the changes in medical advice which reduce the likelihood that people with ESL and lower levels of literacy get the healthcare they need
4. Protect our young people from an ideology which is distressing them and in some instances causing lifelong health issues.
5. Provide female-only rape crisis centres for women who need that.

Anyone who sees these as non-issues has some serious issues.

Most people don't give a shit whether jack wears a dress when he goes to Asda FFS.