To think that Kier Starmer is spineless?

[LittleWhingingWoman]

I'm a long time Labour supporter.
Not anymore.
Kier Starmer was asked if women have penises.
He couldn't answer.

I've had enough of this gaslighting.
How can I vote for a party that is led by this man?
How, in 2022, can a candidate who hopes to be pm not be able to say what a woman is?

AIBU to think he knows FULL WELL what a woman is but is too much of a coward to say. The men threatening and bullying Rosie Duffield certainly know what a woman is.

And I know a penis when I see one.

mobile.twitter.com/keir_starmer

We need to take over the Green Party. Add carrots to support Emma Bateman’s legal challenge.

Wouldn't a simple answer be a biological woman doesn't but a transgender woman could do.

I count a trans woman as a man who's transitioning/transitioned to a woman.

Honestly, MRAs who call intelligent, educated women 'hysterical' come across as quite damaged.

@thenewduchessoflapland

Wouldn't a simple answer be a biological woman doesn't but a transgender woman could do.

I count a trans woman as a man who's transitioning/transitioned to a woman.

No it wouldn't as the question is about a woman. A woman never has a penis. A transman is a sub-set of woman and so does not have a penis unless it's a surgically made pseudopenis.

Yes transwomen have penises often as they are men.

Conflating sex and gender helps no-one and it is sex which defines whether you have a penis.

@Alexandra2001

300 babies died due to poor treatment in 2 NHS maternity units, presumably their mothers are women, their rights get trumped by a trans argument?

So we get yet another thread on what Labour say on Trans rights.

Its like re arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic by people who don't have much else to worry about, like poverty, domestic violence, lack of schooling, childcare, wage inequality, lack of access to healthcare, housing, access to justice for sexual assault etc etc.

Presumably a woman who undergoes a Metoidioplasty/Phalloplasty is a female with a penis?

Starmer is right, its a complex issue, he also stated he wants women only spaces to stay that way.

"Its like re arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic by people who don't have much else to worry about, like poverty, domestic violence, lack of schooling, childcare, wage inequality, lack of access to healthcare, housing, access to justice for sexual assault etc etc."

All of which will be affected if men can say they are women.

Oh my God, did someone call us hysterical? I'm absolutely blindsided. I've never, ever come across that from people trying to shut women up. It's, like, a completely new strategy.

So, calm and reasoned arbiters of the issue: what's a woman?

As for this

"Starmer is right, its a complex issue, he also stated he wants women only spaces to stay that way"

They won't be women only ie single sex on his definition

@spacehardware

As for this

"Starmer is right, its a complex issue, he also stated he wants women only spaces to stay that way"

They won't be women only ie single sex on his definition

Exactly. Which is why women want to hear clear definitions. Not we can’t talk about it etc

That is not what wasasked- and that’s why people need to think before posting stuff like this. Kier was talking about it from the legal angle , the Torys are in power last time I looked and the legal definition is far more vague. Whether that’s right or wrong is a different thing altogether.

@littlbrowndog

Women don’t have penises. Why is that so difficult for anyone with a brain to say.

Unbelievable

Trouble is, legally, some apparently now do, I learnt today. The Spectator article linked by a pp on p2 is brilliant and very informative. Also very worrying.

Starmer is right, its a complex issue, he also stated he wants women only spaces to stay that way.

But what does that actually mean? That's the point. He's dodging the question of what a woman is.

My vote is mine snd I'm not going to cast it to the order of someone who calls women hysterical or transphobes for thinking female people are real. Fuck off tbh

This. It's almost like these posts are written by Tory HQ.

Primary children understand boys have a penis and a girl does not but Kier and most of Labour party are confused. They are unelectable.

It's absolutely right to stress that this Orwellian nightmare is happening under a Tory government.

Which is why I'm so desperately disappointed in and angry with Labour for being so fucking useless and venal on this massive safeguarding issue for women and children.

This is my position exactly. I feel so let down.

This is an absolute non-issue and mumsnet sadly is getting a reputation for being a haven for hysterical transphobes.

It is not a 'non issue' for women being raped in NHS hospitals who are told it cannot possibly be true because no man was there.

It is not a non issue for the young girls who were molested in a Morrisons toilet by a trans woman.

It is not a non issue for the women raped by a transwoman in a women's prison

It is not a non issue for the female athletes who will be displaced by Emily Bridges in a race this week.

It is not a non issue for the women who were not awarded women in business prizes in favour of a cross dresser who is a woman some days of the week and a man on others.

It is not a non issue for girls who are being told that if they are not feminine enough or want to wear mens clothes or suits that they are not girls and resort to gender affirming treatment.

It is not a non issue that our girls have to endure mix sex toilets meaning that many spend the whole day at school without drinking so that they don't have to be harassed by males in the toilets.

It is not a non issue for girls who love sport who know that their sporting chances are limited by which ever male wishes to identify into their sport taking away their opportunities to compete & to win.

It is not a non issue for women whose health is not taken seriously in this country to find that women no longer exist as a sex class so their health issues are unable to be clearly expressed and are therefore ignored.

It is not a non issue for female victims of rape, sexual violence and trauma to be told that they must reframe their trauma and accept mix sexed services or they are the bigots.

It is not a non issue for the gay community to be told that heterosexual couples are also queer and to be told that single sex orientation amounts to a genital preference and is akin to sexual racism.

It is not a non issue for a women's event about FGM and issues that only effect women to be called transphobic and to be the subject of protests calling women in that meeting bigots.

ETC ETC.

But yes just put it all down to Mumsnet hysteria.

Sickening.

It is

And women only spaces have already been infiltrated by men to the point where many women - especially those from ethnic minorities have no choice but to self exclude. I have a very traditional Indian family and the older women are a mixture of faiths. One example is the side of my family where the women are Muslim and they feel they cannot have a man in their intimate spaces no matter how that man identifies.

When we asked for an intimate care provider for my elderly mother to be female - how could we guarantee that it is a woman who takes care of her and not a man who says he is a woman?

Yanbu The man have the backbone of an amoeba and won't be getting my vote.

Women make up 51% of the electorate and if he continues to treat us like 2nd class citizens he can look forward to his entire leadership in the wilderness. Idiot!

I’m beginning to wonder if Starmer’s apparent fudging of what appears to be a pretty straightforward question has more to do with his legal background than anything else? As a Lawyer, he is obviously going to be particularly tuned in to legal definitions.

From the Spectator article -
This has been the case since (at least) 2004 and the passage of the Gender Recognition Act. That law allows a person who meets certain criteria to change their legal gender and be treated, to all intents and purposes, as being of the opposite sex. So a person who was born male and is later issued with a Gender Recognition Certificate is legally female.
I have to admit I wasn’t even aware of the Gender Recognition Act.

@lifeturnsonadime

This is an absolute non-issue and mumsnet sadly is getting a reputation for being a haven for hysterical transphobes.

It is not a 'non issue' for women being raped in NHS hospitals who are told it cannot possibly be true because no man was there.

It is not a non issue for the young girls who were molested in a Morrisons toilet by a trans woman.

It is not a non issue for the women raped by a transwoman in a women's prison

It is not a non issue for the female athletes who will be displaced by Emily Bridges in a race this week.

It is not a non issue for the women who were not awarded women in business prizes in favour of a cross dresser who is a woman some days of the week and a man on others.

It is not a non issue for girls who are being told that if they are not feminine enough or want to wear mens clothes or suits that they are not girls and resort to gender affirming treatment.

It is not a non issue that our girls have to endure mix sex toilets meaning that many spend the whole day at school without drinking so that they don't have to be harassed by males in the toilets.

It is not a non issue for girls who love sport who know that their sporting chances are limited by which ever male wishes to identify into their sport taking away their opportunities to compete & to win.

It is not a non issue for women whose health is not taken seriously in this country to find that women no longer exist as a sex class so their health issues are unable to be clearly expressed and are therefore ignored.

It is not a non issue for female victims of rape, sexual violence and trauma to be told that they must reframe their trauma and accept mix sexed services or they are the bigots.

It is not a non issue for the gay community to be told that heterosexual couples are also queer and to be told that single sex orientation amounts to a genital preference and is akin to sexual racism.

It is not a non issue for a women's event about FGM and issues that only effect women to be called transphobic and to be the subject of protests calling women in that meeting bigots.

ETC ETC.

But yes just put it all down to Mumsnet hysteria.

Sickening.

It is

Mens Rights Activists demand that we pretend this isn't happening.

They think we are all mean white far right middle class Prosecco drinking bitches who want to spoil the fun of the cast of "Pose".

The reality is that those of us who call it out are from the backgrounds where we need those intimate care services or else we have vulnerable family members who do.

Person who stated a footballer has held government to account more than Labour has made an excellent point. I bet Rashford knows what a woman is

@Alexandra2001 he wants woman to have safe spaces but full of trans woman with penis's.

I have just emailed my local councillor Bev Craig as I am so disgusted by this. I doubt I’ll get a response though

This has been the case since (at least) 2004 and the passage of the Gender Recognition Act. That law allows a person who meets certain criteria to change their legal gender and be treated, to all intents and purposes, as being of the opposite sex. So a person who was born male and is later issued with a Gender Recognition Certificate is legally female.

It was acknowledged at the time this law was debated that we were creating a legal fiction. The issues we are seeing now we're anticipated by some involved in the debates and were hand waved away. Hansard's makes very interesting reading. We enshrined a lie in law and we knew that's what we were doing. The GRA itself is evidence that no one can changes sex, there is a primogeniture clause which prevents a female child transitioning and claiming inherited titles in place of a younger male sibling.

Whilst a GRA gives legal recognition of gender the EA 2010 makes provision for maintaining single sex spaces. This means that even males who identify as women and have a GRC can lawfully be excluded from female only spaces and services if it is a "proportionate means to a legitimate aim", this would include maintaining privacy, safety and dignity for women. The EA defines a woman as a female of any age and a man as a male of any age. Male and female are sexed terms.

Stonewall misrepresented the EA 2010 and replaced sex with gender and often gender reassignment with gender identity (which has no legal recognition) and so we have seen women's right to single sex spaces being eroded. No one has faced any consequences for misrepresenting the law, which is in itself unlawful, and so we have ended up with defacto self ID.

Women are fighting to have the law adhered to and their rights to single sex spaces and services reinstated. We will find this much harder to do if self ID actually becomes law.

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

Perhaps they enjoy being in permanent opposition. You get to dick around playing at politics without actually having to make decisions or take any responsibility.

Isn’t that mostly what Boris is doing?

@Battytwatty

I have just emailed my local councillor Bev Craig as I am so disgusted by this. I doubt I’ll get a response though

You will, eventually, but it'll probably be all about why you're wrong.