LGB vs LGBTQI etc

[Whoistheexpert]

Why was the T (and others) ever added to the LGB acronym?

The T (trans) is surely related to gender and not ones sexual orientation?

Am I missing something 😵‍💫

Sex being immutable is a fact. It is also a belief in terms of eg Maya Forstater case, because some people have a false belief that biological sex cannot be defined.

Just saying that, as someone tried to gotcha me on it the other day.

In the same way that evolution is a scientific fact as much as anything else can be, but it's also a belief as there are other beliefs, such as the earth being created by god.

Transphobia is based on the BELIEF that people can't change gender

People can't change SEX and it is not 'transphobic' to know that is FACT.

'Gender' is sex role stereotypes or presentation, which of course can be changed. The person's sex remains the same.

Thinking outward presentation can change a person's sex is a BELIEF that no one else is obliged to share.

Claiming it is transphobic to not go along with someone else's belief that 'gender' has any relevance to someone's sex, is like calling people Godphobic for thinking all religion is bollocks.

Why on earth would it be acceptable to say "sex is immutable" but not to say "homosexuality is wrong"? Both are opinions, not facts

Sex IS immutable. That is fact not opinion.
Being a woman isn't about clothes or special lady feelings. It is simply being a female human. Men are not women.

I don't give a shit what gender you are this morning, last week or two years from now. Your sex matters. Not often but sometimes. And sometimes it matters a lot.
If you are too prudish to say gender rather than sex, that's not my problem.

It feels to me as the argument by TRAs about how trans women are women, would be the equivalent of gay people in the 80s trying to redefine what ‘heterosexual’ is. Rather than fighting not to be discriminated against because they were gay, saying that for example heterosexual now included men who have sex with men, so gay people should have the same rights as heterosexual people because they WERE heterosexual people. It sounds ridiculous right?, and not what the gay rights movement was/is about at all. That for me is the problem with the TRA movement, they are trying to redefine a term based on their wants vs on reality.

'Too prudish THAT you say gender rather than sex'

"would be the equivalent of gay people in the 80s trying to redefine what ‘heterosexual’ is."
Nope. I was around in the 80s. People denied being bisexual. That's what they denied.

"The suggestion that lesbians are as violent as men used as an excuse for making all spaces unisex is about the most homophobic thing I've ever read on mumsnet."
Yeah, ain't it illuminating to see who gets put at the bottom of the pile and who it advantages. Sex and sexual orientation clear as glass then, when males need to be vindicated. That on it's own shows the misogyny and homophobia of this male rights movement as they try to rewrite history and commonsense (98 % that just statistics.....).

@Whoistheexpert

And don’t the LGB community feel they’ve been hijacked now by the intense / constant focus on trans politics?

Aibu to ask this?

They know they’ve been hijacked and many of them are very upset about it. That’s why wonderful people like Alison Bailey set up the LGB Alliance.

It was very sneaky of transvestites to persuade the LGB groups to include them, basically the trans activists exploited the welcoming nature of the LGB groups and then took over those groups and now use them to promote a homophobic agenda.

What gender someone presents as has nothing to do with sexuality, and adult men who suddenly declare that they are women and demand access to all women’s spaces have nothing in common with lesbians and gay men, who face very different issues.

Would be more like if gay men called straight men homophobic for not wanting to have sex with them to validate their sexual orientation.

Simon who founded Stonewall, said, they never affected any other groups rights or beliefs when fighting for gay equality.
Civil partnerships rather than marriage because they knew the church thought they owned 'marriage' and all they wanted was the same legal protections afforded through marriage, like inheritance and financial protections.

Transwomen already have the same legal protections as all other men. What extra rights do they need? TRA's are demanding the REMOVAL of all female legal protections that are based on our sex.
We will no longer be able to have ANY female only spaces, facilities or sports or even to name ourselves as a separate group to males. But they just want to pee right?

Present as any 'gender' you like. Wear what you want, act how you like, be whatever on that scale of GI Joe to Barbie you want to be.

Just don't tell us that because you're 'barbie' today your male body has the right to access female only spaces.

@bellinisurge

I was also shocked *@AhhhHereItGoes* when I discovered that transwomen keep their penis. That changed everything for me.

Sigh. 1. Lots of them don't 2. Why must we reduce everyone to their genitals all the time

Why must we reduce everyone to their genitals all the time

It'll carry on until males stop sexually assaulting females I suppose.

OP I’m right there with you! As a lesbian woman I do not understand how sexuality and gender have been conflated to such a degree that trans issues are now always the “main lgbtq+ focus” . I miss women’s bars I miss women only spaces where lesbians could meet and socialise. I do feel the whole group has been hijacked. Trans people should 100% have their own group and good luck to them, why do they have to completely replace women’s spaces?!

"Sigh. 1. Lots of them don't 2. Why must we reduce everyone to their genitals all the time"
Because that's determines your sexuality unless you are bisexual.
Because that's what you get raped with by a predator.

@bellinisurge

There's no privilege. I'm a gender non conforming woman. I'm not a "cis" woman. That term was made up by a peadophile so please don't use it.

Hmmm. He wasn't actually a paedophile but did think that being attracted to children was "normal". He was a sexologist.

And that wouldn't be a red flag for you?

All those saying they have no issue, are you ok with this too? Can you explain why we should pretend this man is a woman? Why he was allowed to take a spot meant to be for a woman? This is where your 'be kind' and 'inclusion' bollocks get us.

It's intrusion, invasion, coercion and appropriation. Men infiltrating every single female only space and service and destroying them from within, using the LGB movement as a massive fucking trojan horse.

Sigh. 1. Lots of them don't 2. Why must we reduce everyone to their genitals all the time

Because that's what defines whether you're a man or woman to the outside world.

TheXX and XY chromosome will tell you in your DNA but without that your genitalia shows what sex you were born.

I'm happy for a fully transitioned, non penis having transwoman to come into the ladies - she's at least made an effort towards her goal to be more woman like.

But if you really hate being a man why would you keep the offending part?

I find it hard to take someone seriously saying they want to be a woman and yet don't do any physical body changes. Why not just dress how you like and use the toilets assigned to your sex?

Why not focus so much on 'I was born in the wrong body as I don't look female but wish to act female' and instead focus on being an individual who likes painting their nails, weightlifting etc.

I've been sexually assaulted by females and males but oh boy is the majority of predators male.

Do you think that changes simply by wearing a dress?

Even if non intentional what if a woman who has been sexually traumatised sees a trans woman's penis and it triggers her. Should she not feel that the ladies is a space she can escape men and mens bodies?

Most transpeople I know wouldn't do have the crap done in the media do anyway. Many use the disabled loos, dress like a non dragged up version of their preferred gender (ex: transwoman friend will either wear a skirt and a normal top or joggers and a t shirt).

Define "lots" when you say lots of them don't. 80% keep their cock and balls.

And that's 80% with a GRC. No evidence that those without a GRC ever do

LGB people will claim to be more accepting of the T than they are, you're fucked if you don't and can lose your community. A lot of people are waiting for it to blow over.

I am a lesbian and have many lesbian friends, it's half and half who is actively GC, however the 'accepting' ones in reality neither date nor socialise with transwomen. They're in fact many times for likely to date transmen. Make of that what you will.

For people saying that transwomen offend at the same rate as men what studies are they relying on?

It's usually this one that's referred to, right?:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

One of the lead authors has commented further on their findings:

Cecilia Djehne. In the interview, she notes that in
fact:
“The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the
cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter
group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear.
This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.
As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of
convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted
of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we
were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we
were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group,
both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in
the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.
The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is
that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate
given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that
things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988
cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less
effective and social stigma was far worse.”

Nope. Not sure that helps you. Do you believe in "acceptable rape statistics ". Do you know who Karen White is? Without gender woo he wouldn't have had access to women to rape them.

@Jumperlark

LGB people will claim to be more accepting of the T than they are, you're fucked if you don't and can lose your community. A lot of people are waiting for it to blow over.

I am a lesbian and have many lesbian friends, it's half and half who is actively GC, however the 'accepting' ones in reality neither date nor socialise with transwomen. They're in fact many times for likely to date transmen. Make of that what you will.

This is my experience also.